Civil Dogs and Civil Work - Page 12

years ago the "new "saying in sport was,, if the dog makes apport, it will bite also!!

boy was that the beginning of all problems LOL

the problem in countries where dog has to be titled to be able to breed is that many dogs(females esp.) will touch bare minimum, or even less, in order to be breedworthy

than we breed to famous winner male in order to sell pups and go.....

I was reading interesting interview last week in dogsportmagazine with old time breeder of GSD, she hit the nail on the head by stating, in old time IPO the dogs where rated, in todays IPO the trainers are rated

Duke, it's always about us, the humans, and our understanding of dogs.

But, honestly, a breeder that doesn't care about the training curve of his/her dog isn't worth to be called a working dog breeder - and at that point it's about the knowledge of potential puppy buyers...right now people are willing to breed to studs who failed (or should have failed) on the BSZ, to the same time people are willing to buy dogs not fitting the standard...
Who is wrong??? -
First and foremost the breeder - he knows exactly about the advantages and disadvantages of his dogs -
The runner up: the potential buyer who doesn't want to get involved, who doesn't care, who didn't do his/her homework...
The breeder: cheating
The buyer: uninterested and clueless

training itself doesn't mean much in perspective of utilization of it for work.
you might train any dog from any breed, including chihua, but as long, as dog doesn't have physical and mental capabilities
to be functional and able to perform tasks efficiently, it will be just a dog, showing tricks.
that's what pretty much we have now among "sporting" GSDs - dogs, performing learned up tricks.
Duke's quotation above, about handlers rating instead of dogs, is very true.

I still maintain when the purpose for breeding GS changed, so did the outcomes. There was a time when the majority of breeders primarily did compensatory breeding practices based on minimizing or eliminating weaknesses and maintaining strengths. The objective sought was a basic working type dog. Now if in that breeding a particular dog or two showed the aptitude for say police or military, or if a dog or two demonstrated excellent conformation, the dog often was shown or ended up in a working environment.( Often dogs in the middle of such litters were candidates for seeing-eye dogs or farm work etc). No emphasis on colors,( black and red) , no emphasis on angulation, no emphasis on black sable and block heads, just emphasis on two best dogs being bred to maintain a working type dog.( Obviously this wasn’t 100% but it was mentality of most breeders.)
There was not a breeding FOR show and not a breeding FOR sport, so that in most litters you could have a top physical specimen come out and in same litter you could have very strong worker come out, but in general the litters had majority of pups with good basic type ....not based on show or sport but based on functionality of the breed.
This breeding mentality has all but gone, as breeders and many so called experts put greater emphasis on their personal LIKES for the breed, than the functionality or UTILITY of the breed.
I understand that with the evolution of sport and show( in its importance to breeders financially) and the international appeal of the breed, why the breed has slowly been stripped of core elements for much more pleasing aspects .....but this is the curse of popularity in my humble opinion.
Sure, there are some still trying to maintain the INTEGRITY of the breed, but to me it will never be through breeding for sport or show dogs, or breeding for what the general population likes or wants.🤷‍♀️

Gustav - spot on! The 'market' has driven the 'product' - unfortunately this also has applied to the GSD breed.

well, i wasn't witnessed development of breeding model in the West... only results of those development.
back then, behind the "curtain", majority of dogs in households was mutts. there was one nuance, i just now recall, in regard of breeding overall. people, living in appartments, very rarely did have a dogs. majority was in private dwellings behind the fences. these dogs, from time to time the owners let go loose. sort of break from guarding duty :)
anyway, it was common to see behind the running bitch the pack of dogs varying in sizes and shapes. i guess only strongest and most aggressive one (regardless of temperament) was able to copulate. accordingly his traits did pass to offsprings and such dogs in general perception was good enough for what their purpose was. pretty much any dog in household will seriously try to attack and bite stranger, who's entering yard.

german shepherds. there wasn't really very many around. mostly people, passionate to GS breed, did have them. but since my hometown was near the border and our club did have decades of cooperation with border units, there weren't any serious attempts for breeding GS even among club's members. from every litter about half did remained in our possesion due to not fitting for patrol purpose. these dogs was given away to friends/acquaintances if they want one. more agressive dogs we did exchange with local businesses for stuff, needed for our club. sometimes members of clubs from another regions did contact us for dogs. but in any case, these GSs wasn't bred to fill up purpose of companion pet, albeit there were always been a few to well-fit such profile.
looking back, i'm only now realize that in fact german shepherds, at least in my region, was damn good dogs. especially in comparison to what i can see now.

Hope you aren't saying that GSD bitches were allowed out in season, on a 'break from guarding duty' LOL !!

Market directs every breed, not exclusive to gsd.

Obviously, vaulk said the bitches were allowed out to'copulate'wit hthe strongest dog from the neighborhood pack. Where else would the needed watch dogs come from? I doubt there were any puppy store in town/s

Sorry, but that's nonsense.

Valk, I don't know how old you have been when the Wall fell, but within DDR there were the same kind of breeders as in the BRD, there was an annual Siegershow, and there was a Sieger trial... your description of backyard breeding- no chance, in case the breeder wanted to get any pedigrees.

Within DDR there have been breeders breeding for conformation, and there have been breeders for sport, no real difference. I met several of them.

The "Border dogs" have never been an official part of private GSD breeding programs.

You must have lived very close to the boarder - but I wonder how ( better:if ) those puppies ( border/breeder) ever got any pedigrees, or if they have been just a side kick of history.

Hundmutter, sometimes can be spotted in the pack the dogs, very much looks like GS but who can know their breed purity.
there were 220~230K habitants in town. albeit GSDs was way too far to be prevailing in household, still was impossible to
know all owners and their dogs, aside of those who attended or had connection to club.

joanro, no puppy store in town, no commercially made dog food, no place to buy toys, equipment and supplies for dogs - shity
commy wasn't able to provide enough necessities for people, leave alone the dogs.
but my guess, GSDs, before becoming GSD breed, was bred and selected in similar way.

susie, description of past realities above isn't about East Germany :P

p.s. dogs from border kennels were purebred. in every kennel the vets did kept records. but nationwide register was absent. each club did hold their own books. from 1971 to 2000 i owned 5 dogs. none had official pedigree papers as known official proof of purebreed dogs. shame, but today i would give 5 pedigree dogs for 1 my past "mutt".