Serious Breeders - Page 15

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by ValK on 16 September 2017 - 18:09

i didn't talk about particular dog, perfect-master-of-all-trades but about breed.
so "all round master" apply to breed overall. keeping the breeding to classical average standard always will gives a great chance that one particular litter could produce a pup, which will excel in tracking, when another sibling could grow into great protection/guard, etc. dog, and rest of siblings, albeit without outstanding qualities to perform real life work, will do great family dogs with hidden somewhere in them genetic code to someday produce another few more outstanding dogs. i have seen this in my life.
breeding, based on extremes, won't do any good for breed overall.

in regard of universality of sole dog to perform multiple tasks absolutely perfectly, i agree with you. in my youth i happened to have mentor, old man, who was professionally involved in dogs breeding/training prior and during the WWII. the really good tracking dogs then (as today as well) was rarity and was highly prized. they never been allowed to got into interaction with the object of tracking. if necessity were arised, for that, used another dogs, trained for this purpose and kept behind them.

by Centurian on 16 September 2017 - 18:09

Valk ... yes a valid point : exttemes does not the breed good and I advance your thought by stating.. that already this has occurred way to much to the detriment of the breed . Valk- good point :-)

by Swarnendu on 16 September 2017 - 19:09

Centurion, I'd advance your thought by stating that breeding for extreme has already split the breed four ways, two types of show, sports & LE/PP (not counting the herding, seeing eye etc because they are already getting rarer), and pet dogs coming from all those types.

Back to the main issue, how can a litter contain all these types when the "serious" breeders aren't keen to mix?

by Centurian on 17 September 2017 - 11:09

Swarn , THAT is a key question !! One that I frequently and deeply ponder about !

However , I think in some avenues that it is way way wayyyyyyy to late ! I feel what many people do not realize this , and more so the breeders - or this is not a concern to them. For example , the show lines, which I have no gripe against [ I have currently multiple SL ] , they genetically are currently a different breed . They are so far a drift of what the GS once was. As others have written on the PDB , once certain n traits are lost , there is no breeding them back in . That is a fact.. not an opinion ... for those learning.. it is an unequivocal , indesputable fact. So ..... mixing .... HMMMMM ,

susie

by susie on 17 September 2017 - 18:09

I think different ( I am talking for Germany, not for the rest of the world ).

It's still possible to find a showline able to work, and it's still possible to find a workingline looking like the standard (SV) describes, no problems, just take a look at the local clubs.

And what's wrong about a showline/workingline breeding?
That's NOT mixing two breeds, in most cases it's even a wider linebreeding...

I really don't get it-statistically there is no difference between a "linebreeding free" workingline litter/showline litter and a show/workingline litter.

Take 2 good dogs, and they will give 50% of their genetics to their offspring, no matter the lines.

People just need to care about working ability AND conformation -
a lot of people don't care about both, and that's the main problem we have.



by ValK on 18 September 2017 - 02:09

susie
today even so call, working lines, for most part do "manufacture" albeit healthy/agile but mentally challenged dogs.
what can you add to them from show lines, beside a crippled body structures?
quite scary picture from outcome of such crossbreeding - GSD as a breed of deformed idiots.

by Ragnarok2 on 18 September 2017 - 02:09

Valk,

Would you please explain your first sentence in your last comment. When you say "for most part", what percentage do you mean? What do you mean by "mentally challenged"? Where are you meeting all these terrible examples in such large numbers?
I'm keeping my eye on several serious breeders who produce dogs sound in body and mind. They aren't hard to find, here, in the US. Their dogs are successful in many ways, all the way to international competitions.
So, why so dramatic?


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 18 September 2017 - 07:09

I would seriously like to see people that talk derisively about the dogs being bred in Europe, who are still MOSTLY combinations of, or outcrosses between, Show and Sport (IPO) lines/kennels, [rather than some near-mythical return to the old boarder guarding dogs of what was East Germany, or the distinct split we are led to believe exists in the US of A],come over and say it to the faces of German serious breeders and the executive of the SV that they are producing nothing but "deformed idiots". Easy to insult the home of the breed from a keyboard.


by ValK on 18 September 2017 - 15:09

Ragnarok2
under "mentally challenged" i meant the dogs, which does stuck in their psychological development in the puppies stage for rest of their life. i cannot provide you with statistic and i guess no one can but way too many of such dogs today. as i mentioned above, they are fine physically but that's about all. when you see their work on field it's hard to not notice - all is based on playfulness. decoy aren't nemesis but rather playmate. and that's the dogs 3 to 7 y.o. i won't object, this type of behaviour perfectly fit for what they have use now - sport. but to call it "working dog" in the meaning as a dog, for real life application, doesn't fit the term at all.

Hundmutter
in this forum lady from Russia have posted plenty of short videos from 2017 SV Bundessiegerzuchtschau. in many you clearly can see, some dogs hardly can walk/run, leave alone the tasks, working breed dogs must perform. and mind you, that's official SV sponsored and approved event to show to the world the best of the best representatives of breed. i won't go in talk about law enforcement/military institutions, even in Germany, looking for their canines anywhere else but Germany.
in regard of East german dogs, could be for you they are mythical but believe me, they were real. not all of them was naturally born killing machines. there were variety as well and not all was perfect candidates for practical needs such like police work, border control, objects guarding, etc. maybe you wouldn't believe, but majority of these "mythical" dogs did live with humans as family dogs. nevertheless, they did produce the stock, which did supply quite rich selection to choose from for either the work, the sport or just family faves.

susie

by susie on 18 September 2017 - 18:09

"Deformed idiots" ????????
Deformed = showlines ?
Idiots = workinglines?

In case this is your opinion you should change the breed...
or
stop to look at the extremes only.

There are a lot of good dogs out there, working wise and conformation wise, in case you are actively involved in the breed not even difficult to find.

It's always about us, the humans, and our personal goals.

You want a "more serious" dog with less play/prey drive? Just take a look into the clubs, not into the results of any championships.
You want a not overdone showline, able to work? Take a look at the dogs themselves, don't care about the BSZS showratings.

You mentioned Irina's videos-those videos are a great tool for everybody - and they are fof free...

You know what?
A lot of people will buy puppies out of those dogs, only because those dogs got a high rating at the BSZS, no matter the performance. Who cares?

Stupid at best- it's a SHOW in which the dogs have to perform minor bite work (still not easy-a lot of distractions, several workinglines blamed themselves in this surrounding...).

I really believe potential buyers need to get actively involved into dog sport.
As soon as you know WHAT you want. and as soon as you know HOW IT HAS TO LOOK LIKE, it's not that difficult any more.
Right now most people don't have a clue, don't want to get involved, but want to make money out of GSDs...









 


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