G.S.D. breeder states NO test for the D.M.! - Page 3

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Western Rider

by Western Rider on 14 June 2017 - 03:06

Beetree you posted this and I may be wrong but think you are referring to my post

Good story? Hardly. An AT RISK dog did not show symptoms. 

That is only one outcome of two, that WAS predicted. 

Not a good reason to NOT test.

Please note that I said I do test twice in the post, how else would I know that she tested at risk.

I test all my dogs, just don't feel that the test is fool proof.

Also the poster wanted to know when to expect symptoms to show, they don't always.

I don't think that a raw diet will stop or cure DM but do feel that it will help a dog with hidden auto-immune problems from showing up.


by beetree on 14 June 2017 - 04:06

The poster (J78) was who said it was a "good story", referring to your experience with testing, not you, WR, and who I reacted to in my post. There was a reason for that descriptive that I suspect and find disingenuous.

Symptoms can show up anytime. There are early and late onset symptoms. They both will follow the same progression, only some faster than others, but all will have the same demise and outcome.

by L Bruce on 14 June 2017 - 17:06

Thank You! If breeders were more concerned about health than say the dog's ability to take a grown man down or money ,then the breed could only get better. I would pay far more than what I did to not have to worry about this. For the person that said i was a victim of sensationalism ,REALLY, my vet whom like myself has had GSD's her entire life and a university that is considered one of the best. If you carry genes from both parents there is a pretty good chance you will have whatever that gene is responsible for. The research backs it up and the fact that DNA testing is now available for many inherited diseases human and animal and less expensive than years past it is widely used for breeding of many type of animals if for just color combinations and this is fact my best friend breeds some of the top American Paint Horses in US and every horse she has at her breeding barn is typed for color ,size and GENETIC DISEASE and any stud or mare she considers buying for breeding is also tested before she will buy them. But she also gets 20,000.00 + for foals that may never be a winner in the show ring nor even a saddle on them yet ,then you have to look to training at fault for that If I were a GSD breeder I would offer evidence of parents tested DNA for diseases and offer to have puppy of person's choice swabbed sealed and sent off and tested also before being sold. Think of the money you could ask when you could give someone assurances that a great many inherited deadly diseases could be eliminated from worry. That does not mean you still don't have to worry about HD and other diseases that are or may be due to physical work or care but you are going to tell me I'm overreacting when the science says in their research 10 dogs that had their spines examined for DM after death 10 were positive and they were tested genetically and had 2 genes 1 from each parent responsible for onset of disease and only 1 did not die from it

? 99.9 % I'll take sensationalism anytime over a breeders word from now on and demand testing for what can be tested for before they receive a dime from me and this would eliminate the shady backyard breeders and puppy mills. Why would you not want that? Dog that sells for 1500.00 now sells for 2000.00 and responsible people will gladly pay this or more. The breed will only lose the stigma they now have about bad hips and early death,my friends and other family members words when I bought the one I now have and I have had them since 5 yrs of age and now 59,no not a victim of sensationlism and glad for DNA because looking back several with supposed HD one 2 dogs ago spent thousands for treatment and now am pretty sure it was DM he went down fast and could not walk after 9 months and vet kept offering more drugs and therapy . That was way before DNA was available and probably before this disease was even known to many vets.


Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 14 June 2017 - 18:06

Western, I think Beetree was spinning things in her head to make things more dramatic and interesting. I said "good story" to your post because I meant it- it's a "good story" to show someone that they need not assume their dog is going to die a horrible, slow death just because they tested "at risk." It was as straightforward and genuine a comment as can be- perfect illustration of what the test really does and does not mean. There is NO set predictor (yet) to determine who will and who will not be affected.

To LBruce- you seem to have not understood my post. I say "sensationalism" because you're here panicking about a dog that is healthy today- and it's because your vet scared you. I don't like things being hyped up to the point where worry about what "might" happen in the future overtakes the enjoyment of the dog in the here and now. There is no guarantee your dog will ever suffer from DM. He might or he might not. Panicking won't change the outcome. Like I said, I would treat him as any dog with a possible auto-immune issue and hope he doesn't. If only we had a test for things like hemangiosarcoma which robs young dogs of their lives far more often. Did you bother to read the article I linked to about the modifiers? The more you know....

by beetree on 14 June 2017 - 21:06

Spare me your "anti-dramatics", Jenni78. I am quite aware how you will tend to downplay DM with insignificance and that you are in the camp that does not see value in testing. And that you would steer the affliction as brought on by auto-immune causes, etc., when the science does not prove that thought and is still being discovered through genetics research. You will project yourself as the research nerd and pickiest breeder of the highest standards to give yourself authority in this matter. Some of which might even be true, but the one thing you can't be an authority on is DM, since you've never had a dog that experienced any of the symptoms.

New posters won't pick up on such nuances as I will, as we've been through all this time and time again. You know where I stand, and I know where you stand.

One needs to only go through this disease once with their beloved dog to know that it isn't something they would want to experience or have any dog experience, ever again. With such an experience one can say with certainty that if a dog has DM, as can only be diagnosed while alive, through elimination of other possible diseases or conditions, that at this time, they will die a slow, debilitating, and certain death.
 


Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 14 June 2017 - 22:06

I'm not sure how you know so much about my "camp." I don't plan on ever being an "authority" on DM, beetree. However, I do believe it my duty to learn as much as I can about something that people believe affects so many GSDs, even though my bloodlines of interest haven't seemed to be as affected as others, if for no other reason than to help separate fact from supposition or even outright fiction. My dogs are tested because if they ever come down with symptoms, they WILL be necropsied and I will see how their necropsy aligns with their test result. This is the only way to achieve an accurate diagnosis.

Having many dogs and never having a GSD affected by it, but seeing them affected with other things that may mimic DM, I will always always always push to either diagnose with certainty, or don't call it DM. It hurts dogs to be misdiagnosed. It hurts owners to lose dogs who might not have needed to be lost, but were lost because rather than looking for an alternative, a dog was diagnosed with the trendy affliction, DM. How many had CE or something treatable and never got the chance? I get the phone calls from people who lost their dogs to "DM." They tell me how much pain the dog was in (um, DM is painless). They tell me other things that don't line up with DM, but that's what they were told- there was no hope. And maybe there wasn't. The fallacies are what bother me. The gloom and doom resulting from an A/A test result when how many dogs are running around with A/A genotypes, untested, never to develop the disease?

But it would best benefit the whole breed if people would push for DEFINITIVE diagnosis and thus necropsies. Until we figure out what controls who gets this disease and who doesn't, we can't make any progress. The test we have now is a help, in a way, but I also think it is harmful in that many misunderstand its power and what it can and cannot do. And, I'm afraid it might be slowing the research because too many people think this test is good enough.

I don't know why you always think there are nuances in everything people write- perhaps because you tend to speak/write that way as opposed to a clear,direct, factual way, but I am pretty blunt. I don't think there is anything people are going to misconstrue from what I said- the SOD1 test is all we have, but it's not all that's needed. I use it, but will never tell someone it means more than it does. By having "SOD1" notations on my website, I get people to ask questions and open the discussion, which I feel is important because too many think we know what causes DM and just testing will solve everything. If only it were so simple.


by beetree on 14 June 2017 - 22:06

See, the reason I pick up on nuances for an example, is because of how you just used the word "trendy".

That isn't what it is, even if it is a misdiagnoses.

Also, I am being quite blunt where you are wanting to make it seem that I am not. Nice little flip there. You are pretty expert with leading the reader where you want to take them. That should be blunt enough.



by beetree on 14 June 2017 - 23:06

BTW, for breeders and buyers wanting to have a discussion before buying, if one reads the research from the link GSDHeritage posted, the SOD1 discussion concludes:

Thus, the above-mentioned strategy of breeding to avoid the production of SOD1:c.118A homozygous puppies still appears to be warranted, particularly in breeds with high SOD1: c.118A allele frequencies where stricter selection strategies would come at the expense of selecting for other important traits. 

Now, the elephant in the room of course is the 8 or 9 years of seemingly good health of future afflicted dogs. That period of time can become significant in more ways than one, when considering what should a breeder value most in their future progeny and lines.


by 2Cats on 15 June 2017 - 09:06

I think the main issue is that people get scared, They hear the dog is at risk, or a carrier..etc and worry. I would too if no one explains to me. The dog can be affected but still live a very prosperous life, Take precautions, find out everything you can about the disease and help your pet live with it, without it taking full blown affect. Prevent it from turning bad. Like a dog that has weak hips before it's fully grown, Vet would say SURGERY!! but evidence shows that swimming and therapy will help strengthening the hips and you would not have to get hip surgery in 90% of cases.
I contacted a lot of breeders,kennels all over the world to find a good dog. When I ask for any DNA genetic tests on the dogs, EVEN when I offer to pay for all tests and fees involved. The same response was received " we can not test any of our breeding dogs (Champion Show lines and working line) We are afraid that the repercussions would be too great". These are dogs that are pretty much in every German Shepherd's pedigree. They care more about selling another 10000 puppies then to try and keep the breed healthy. The best thing and ONLY proper thing to do is neuter/spay affected dogs, even carriers. We are losing our beloved breed to something that can be prevented, and breeders that care about the money not the dog. A dna hereditary test is $129 and tests for every hereditary disease.

Markobytes

by Markobytes on 15 June 2017 - 15:06

lunastar, DM can only be proven by necropsy, A diagnosis combined with test results of carrier or at risk does not prove a dog has DM. Did the dog in the video have a necropsy done to confirm the diagnosis?
Jenni78 and Western Rider have the proper perspective, it is irresponsible to believe an at risk result condemns the dog to the disease. Western Rider gave good links, the first lists the test as optional, the second link is the University of Missouri study backing the test. Ten GSDs confirmed to have DM were used in the study, seven tested at risk, two tested as carriers, one tested clear. Five others were misdiagnosed as having DM, two tested clear. You want breeders to rely on that study? One of the Researchers of the study, the Broad Institute believed further study needed to be done, here is what they say about the test; "The availability of the DM test has raised questions that must be answered before the test can be used by dog breeders. Are there genetic modifiers that could explain why some dogs with the mutation develop DM at 8 years of age while other 15 year old dogs with the same mutation remain symptom free? Are there other mutations in the SOD1 gene or elsewhere that can cause DM or DM like disease?" The University of Florida was doing research specifically into the form of DM that afflicts GSDs, this is what they said; "this SOD1 change does not appear to be specific in GSDM and is probably a common mutation, not the rare mutation would have high risk significance." The University of Florida was looking at other genes and was researching treatment. The test killed that research.
There are huge problems with the testing; it is easier to do than HD testing, the test might not pertain to the form of DM that afflicts GSDs, it gives a false sense of security by its labeling dogs "clear". I have seen breeders use the test to claim they were responsible while at the same time not having their dogs HD rated. I have seen breeders advertise their dogs as clear, and when asked what that means, they responded my dogs are free of and can not get DM. It is human nature for people not to even want a puppy when one parent tests carrier and the other tests clear. The gene pool can be further be reduced unnecessarily if the research proves faulty.





 


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