German Shepherd Dog > Hymen and small vulva in breeding bitches (13 replies)
Hymen and small vulva in breeding bitches
by oleos93 on 25 May 2012 - 07:42
Ironically I just bought 2 new females for breeding and BOTH while in heat and during ovulation have extremely small vulva's or vagina's. One was not a maiden bitch and was not told of her issue, needless to say she was to small during her heat to tie so we had to AI.
Second female was a maiden female...same issue very very small vulva at breeding time and male could not tie so we had to AI. But with her I had a hard time with her Hymen....past experience is they broke very easy. Her's not so easy.
So questions are, anyone experience either of these issues and what did you do?
by joanro on 25 May 2012 - 11:58
|Why breed an animal that cannot reproduce naturally? If this was, hypothetically, the ONLY two cases of this problem,it wouldn't be the only cases anymore. You just propagated the problem by doing AI. If dogs aren't physically capable of breeding, they should not be bred. AI is convenient when logistics poses a problem, but I don't believe it should be used to circumvent physical limitations; such as collecting a male for AI because he can't breed a female who has challenging attitude or because he can't stand on his hind legs long enough to breed naturally.|
by dantes on 25 May 2012 - 13:57
Good job it doesn't apply to humans then... Joanro, you hold a strong view but I believe it is limited and overly simplistic.
by macrowe1 on 25 May 2012 - 13:58
|I'd be afraid that even if this breeding takes, you'll have problems getting the pups out. If they don't swell during ovulation, I'd be scared they wouldn't swell enough to push a pup out.|
by macrowe1 on 25 May 2012 - 13:59
|& I'm for AI, but that'd be my only worry is that they'll have trouble in delivery, JMO. Did the vet say anything about it?|
by Hutchins on 25 May 2012 - 14:34
|I too would be concerned about delivery. However I have talked to several people that have had the same issues and had to AI. They said that the delivery went well and no problems at all. Myself, I would be so concerned, I would worry myself to death. However, lets not crucify the OPster. My first question was, why in the world were these bitches sold as brood bitches. Seems the present owner is not as experienced as need be. Perhaps these bitches should have been spayed before selling. |
But just alittle something to think about. Since there is no perfect dog, and no dog is without faults, If dogs were not bred because they had a fault, the dog world would cease to exist.
Not trying to start a debate, but it surely is something to think about.
by macrowe1 on 25 May 2012 - 15:33
|Hutchins: that's good to hear that you've heard of good deliveries. I also agree that I'd be a little upset that they were sold as brood bitches and can't be bred unless they're AI-ed.|
by oleos93 on 25 May 2012 - 15:57
Not looking for a debate and want to stay on topic.....I will not reply again if we can't just stay on topic.
I gave a back ground so folks would know what I am talking about...and all I am in search for is experiences with this situation. That's all...period.
The other questions people bring up are my issues and the people I deal with and not open for discussion right now right here. Just asking for experiences.
Not looking for opinions on what should or should not happen.....been doing this for over 22 years and have had PLENTY of normal breeding with complications and know how to get my hands dirty. So save the lectures as like someone mentioned not every dog is perfect and it is what it is and I will deal with that end of it.
Again just looking for experiences. Sorry if sounding snarky but I wish just once people would stay on topic. But everyone is a critic (including me) and it would be alot easier if it just stayed simple.
We can start a new post if people like for the other things but I really don't want to read 100 messages just to get to the one that I am in need of...so again please stay on topic here.
by Weezy on 25 May 2012 - 16:24
I have in the past 4 years came across this with a some of my females. I aquired as pups.
Tough hymens on 3 and small Vulva on one. Everytime male tried to penetrate they would jump out from under him and yelp, would keep flagging and flirting, they were ready. I AI'd them.
First 2 Had their pups fine, a little rough getting first pup out due to having to break the hymen, but did fine and vulva enlarged much more for delivery than for breeding. 3rd female has just been done, We'll see how she does. The first 2 have been bred naturally since their first litter was born.
I have helped AI other's females, various breeds, that seem to have small vulva or snug cervix, they too whelped without c-section. I think my biggest worry would be a small pelvic opening to be unable to deliver puppies. It may take a little longer to get the first puppy out, so you may need to watch for that..
hope this helps you some.
by 1GSD1 on 25 May 2012 - 16:47
|Oleos93, imported a bitch that had/has a small vaginal opening. Could get just the tip of my finger with glove of course and lube on. Went to repro vet for opinion.|
Was told what looked pretty obvious, don't try naturally. She had a transcervical, no pups. Worked out for the best she is spayed. Question on delivery was not how small because they dilate during first stage labor internally which one would not see. The vet did say that she should be examined the day before the due date. I assume since they get pretty big during pregnancy and loose and soft, she may have been bigger then vaginally, but we didn't get to that point. If she was not a c-section decision would have had to be made before she started labor I guess. This was a small vaginal opening, not a small vulva. That actually got pretty big during her cycles. Have another one who has a small vulva. Decided to check her during her last cycle. Too young to think about but I was curious. Wide open, no issues there other than the target..
by Ramage on 25 May 2012 - 17:12
|Do you know for a fact that the "proven" bitch is really proven? People lie, lie, lie. Perhaps this bitch is also a maiden and will loosen up after her first litter.|
by oleos93 on 25 May 2012 - 23:43
Thanks Weezy and 1GSD1...very helpful.
I am actually not overly concerned as worse case we do a C section. I had to do an emergency c section once and know my limit of how long to wait to decide.
Yes the proven bitch is proven.....I can see her progeny record on AKC. And I guess that was another question if anyone has ever heard of this happen later after having so many litters or just all of a sudden. I have never heard of it to just happen after a period of time....but maybe it is common too. Maybe some sort of condition behind it?
by trixx on 26 May 2012 - 20:51
|i have a female i got from germany that has a small vulva and does stay small while in heat , but any real experience males has never had a problem getting in her , the unexpereince males never got inside her as the target is alot smaller, now when she has had pups i have had no problems with her whelping naturally. the only concern i would have if she is also small inside she may have to have a c section, i do know a friend that has had a small female and can breed fine , but cause she is small on the inside always needs a c section and that does come from certain lines , so i would not breed a dog that needs a C section, if they cant breed natural then why bother.|
by trixx on 26 May 2012 - 20:52
|i am sure your females were more than likely born with this problem.|