Reckless Aggression , where does it comme from, and which lines are known to pass it down? - Page 14

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by apple on 10 October 2019 - 17:10

Seeing how this is a discussion forum, it would be nice if you expressed your thoughts rather than making innuendoes.

by duke1965 on 10 October 2019 - 17:10

go to holland, visit about ten KNPV clubs, talk to some people,work some dogs and then come again

by apple on 10 October 2019 - 17:10

You are saying I have to have direct experience and observation in order to have any valid knowledge about KNPV and the dogs involved. While experience is a great source of knowledge, all knowledge does not come from experience. All science is based on the experimentation and validation of others and the same goes for life. Even if a person has direct experience with KNPV, he still has to explain it which is subjective. I don't need to stand in front of a loaded gun to understand how dangerous it is. I have had conversations with people who go to Holland, test their dogs, import their dogs and have good contacts with good breeders there. What specifically do you disagree with regarding my post?

by ValK on 10 October 2019 - 18:10

Kinolog

impulsiveness, high reactiveness of dogs, who were picked for the type of work which involves close cooperation between dog and handler in ever varying and unpredictable environment and circumstances, never have been a good idea.
there quite pattern of correlation in between of intesity of prey and reactivness/impulsiveness of dog.
cases, when K9 attack an inocent bystanders, playing/running kids related to this trait. conjuction of high prey and aggression is a disaster in wait.

apple
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guo5AAqDguo

looks impressive but for god sake, why one need such extreme performances by dogs, beside circus shows?

by duke1965 on 10 October 2019 - 18:10

so its all someone said kind of info then

a lot of it is generalization, which is incorrect both in commenting about KNPV breeders, mixmalinois and  GSD dogs

the over the top drives in some are not result of training, but result of breeding, and there will allways be not so smart trainers everywhere that will try to train/and or teach a dog something when in the highest state of drive

the extreme punishment you refer to is not so much used because its needet for the strong dogs, but rather lack of knowledge of other options, when you see Dick van leeuwen training his dogs, which are some of the toughest dogs around, you will see him use brainpower, rather than blunt force, to  get where he wants to be with his dogs

to say the KNPV breeders(in general) have produced a better dog than GSD breeders is also incorrect statement, there are SOME breeders in KNPV that consistantly produce good dogs, same as there are GSD breeders that consistantly produce good dogs, and generally the strongest GSD are not to be found on the WUSV championships, same as the strongest KNPV dogs are not allways to be found at the KNPV championships

finally, the police are getting worse and worse in the type of dogs they want for policework, most want a nice sportdog these days, easy to handle, overly social and full calm grips, strong dogs are not in high demand in general, I have some clients taking tough dogs but that is getting less and less, have one real strong dual mix malinois here that is hard to place in LE now , and a friend of mine has a tough KNPV titled pedigree malinois that he almost cannot give away right now

by Hired Dog on 10 October 2019 - 19:10

Duke, when you say "tough", do you mean handler aggressive? There are many interpretations of tough out there and I want to make sure.
I have nothing against a tough dog that is clear in the head, but, a handler aggressive dog can get old really quick.

by duke1965 on 11 October 2019 - 05:10

not talking handler agressive, but strong dog, that might take day or two to be good with new handler, and cannot be switched around and kissed and petted by everyone,

some people think a dog with agression is agressive to everything and everybody, I call that full circle agression, witch is not desirable for me, I want focussed or directed agression

basicly same with definition social , dogs need to be social to its own people but not social to every stranger coming towars you

by Hired Dog on 11 October 2019 - 10:10

Good morning Duke,
I see nothing wrong with what you describe and I agree with your assessments as well. No one should have a problem with a dog that is not meant to be a pet, being not interested in anyone touching it or playing with it.
Another pet peeve of mine, strangers wanting to touch dogs they have never met or been introduced to.
In the world of PC and acceptance, is it any wonder that police agencies want dogs that are social whores that everyone can handle?
emoryg

by emoryg on 11 October 2019 - 11:10

I predict over the next 2 - 5 years there will be a tremendous demand for the more sociable and approachable police dog, with selected breeds and mixes coming under great scrutiny. There may even be a minimum standard that the DOJ imposes that will include a temperament test for all LEO dogs that serve the public interest. The tsunami of lawsuits under 42/1983 that is starting to come ashore will force the hand of the feds to intervene.

by apple on 11 October 2019 - 12:10

Valk,
In the past you have said the GSD has suffered because breeders breed for commercial interest, pets, etc. Then you ask why these Mals/Mal X's are so extreme. A main reason is that they are bred strictly for work and not for pets. Also, some believe that you have to breed extremes because dogs rarely out produce themselves and over time, without using extreme dogs the breed becomes diluted.
Duke,
I never said over the top drives are due to training, it is clearly breeding. What I said was that some Dutch trainers raise their dogs in a way that they build their drive to its genetic maximum capacity and then use harsh methods in order to get some control, which is, IMO, not so smart training as you said. I agree that a dog cannot learn when in an extreme state of drive. And since the Mal X's tend to be so high drive genetically, there is no need or usefulness to bring out that level of drive in training. I agree there are trainers that are smarter than others like every aspect of life. I have read Dick comment that he doesn't use toys with his dogs because they tend to be very genetically dominant and using a toy would just lead to a fight over the toy. But I know that you know some Dutch trainers use abusive training with some of the extreme Mal X's. I agree that the WUSV GSDs are not often the strongest and have said many times it is due to their sport of IGP. You need a sport dog rather than a police type dog to win. In KNPV, people working with potential police dogs are not looking to win and often barely obtain their PH1 because the dogs are so driven and hard. It is a different mindset than the Germans. The Dutch tend to see the best dogs as the ones who barely title and the Germans tend to see the best dogs as the podium dogs. Regarding the Mal X's vs. the Dutch GSDs, I am saying the Mal X's are much more extreme and agile. But they are a different breed and they are not all police dog material. Many people here in the states get Mal X's from KNPV lines to participate in PSA, but they need the social, low dominance, high prey without much aggression in order to compete at the upper levels because the sport has an absurd amount of control in which the super hard Mal X's would not succeed in PSA. When people say a dog is good, you have to ask good for what? I agree with your comments about the police and the types of dogs they want and include the military. One person I know in the states who has a lot of contracts with the police and military to supply KNPV Mal X's only provides super social, extreme prey and hunt dogs because that is what is in demand.
Emoryg,
I wouldn't be surprised to see the use of dogs in police and military become obsolete in the future not only due to lawsuits, but also due to AI and the development of robotic "dogs."


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