What causes this working difference? - Page 9

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by duke1965 on 24 January 2019 - 18:01

just natural suspicion, and civil agression, old czech lines had quite a bit of that LOL, my point is, if such dog is mistrained from puppyhood it will be confused, but doesnot mean it is insecure, 

less and less people know how to work a dog in any other way than prey and play, tugOwar and cooky/klicker


by apple on 24 January 2019 - 18:01

Duke,
I am aware of your location, involvement in the working dog world and your good reputation. I was just putting those comments out for others who might not be as familiar with the topic. I wish the mod would fix the link so I can watch it. Like many things in the dog world, this opinion is debatable, but some people believe that the influence of schutzhund/IPO over time has led to the significant decrease of fighting instincts in many of the West German working lines and that is why many police departments started going to the older Czech lines, which tend to be more defensive and have natural suspicion. But some believe, while they bring aggression, it is more defense based than fight based. It probably doesn't matter though, some handlers don't care to deal with reactive dogs like that, and then there is the PR aspect of it. On top of that, like Valk suggests, many who bred the old Czech lines are incorporating West German lines resulting in a different type of dog. Prager always says it is not for commercial reasons, but to improve their lines, but I don't buy that and think most of their dogs end up in pet homes.

I have commented on this topic before, but the old DDR Wertmessziffer rating system's highest/best rating for sharpness and courage and hardness was a 5, which was rated "very good."  The temperament of those dogs was rated as "relaxed and friendly and very hard when provoked."  So I don't know how much influence the old Czech breeders had on selecting for natural suspicion as opposed to a relaxed and friendly dog that was very hard when provoked.  The old DDR dog with a rating of 5 on sharpness, corage and hardness sounds like a lot less reactive/defensive dog than a dog with natural suspicion/mistrust.


by duke1965 on 24 January 2019 - 19:01

I would say that is matter of defenition, can call it sharpness, can call it suspicion/civil reaction,if a dog is oversocial and doesnot see  treath in anything, what should trigger any reaction like agression,fight or whatever one would call it.

than there is the big discussion about agression, there are various forms of agression that we should see apart from each other, I would say, that a lot of agression in west dogs , be it malis, mixes or GSD is full circle agression, meaning, everyting/everybody who enters the circle from whatever direction is at risk, handler includet, also many of  these dogs are "on" constantly

now old east lines, are not "on " all the time, relaxt, laid back, calmer in the kennel, like you discribe, but have what we can call reactive or directed agression, only focussed in the direction of topic of suspicion so to speak, and definately not directed to the handler,many can be called handler soft actually

furthermore, it is a dream to think that these high drive mix malis from KNPV lines work over prey only, as I bought multiple real nice KNPV bred dogs with same mindset as old east lines, laid back dogs with reactive agression, also some pedigree malinois lines have these qualitys, and are not malinois typical in their behaviour 

dont mean to generalize, as each dog is differend in buildup of various character traits

 


by ValK on 24 January 2019 - 20:01

majority of dogs, who failed test for border service, were sharply reactive, did go instantly into offense without much of the reason.
but they were very good watchdogs and certainly not the stock to be typical of today's nice companion doggy.

i'm not sure about necessity of "fighting instinct". after all GSDs isn't bred for dog fight totalizator. what is extinct in GSDs of Western breeding is a protection instinct. in turn that did create the type of extremely friendly, playful, affectionate and never maturing type of GSDs, which today prevail.
that led to breeders and commercial trainers did introduce and lobby protection aspect by "defense through prey", which i see as total BS.

emoryg

by emoryg on 24 January 2019 - 20:01

Apple, I figured he was either a Marine or in the Coast Guard.  I get those two confused.  Army warriors don’t wear clothing to demonstrate what a real bite looks like, so I know he wasn’t in that branch.  Sorry, couldn’t let that one slide!lol

We had a troop (I think they used the same terminology of the Girl Scouts) of Marines stationed at our fort.  Sometimes they would be outside their barracks having a bake sale, doing yoga or playing hop scotch.  If we were out running PT, we would always break into one of my favorite cadence:

Two marines laying in the bed,

One rolled over to the other and said,

I want to be an Airborne Ranger,

Live a life of sex and danger…

 

I can’t write on a public forum what they would sing when they came by our barracks.

Ah, the good times!  Always had and will continue to have a lot of respect for the jarheads.  Make good cops too.  Nice to have them around when things gets ugly. 


by apple on 25 January 2019 - 13:01

Valk,
I don't know what you mean by, "GSDs isn't bred for dog fight totalizer." If you mean being bred for dog fighting, that is not what I meant. I was referring to a GSDs' willingness to fight a man without equipment. Some are genetically hardwired to do this without any training. Some will do quite well, but need some training, and some will never fight a man and will only bite a sleeve.
I don't agree that the protective instinct is extinct in the West German working lines. I will say it is less prominent do to breeding for sport, which really doesn't test a dog's willingness to fight a man. My year old GSD is out of West German, Czech, and Slovak lines and goes back to some old DDR dogs. He is social and likes to play, but I am seeing more and more protective behavior from him. The result is strong prey and confident aggression.

by Juno on 25 January 2019 - 13:01

Apple,

Can you please post the pedigree and some pictures of your dog. You may have done so already, if so can you please point me in that direction.

Thanks,

Rana

by apple on 25 January 2019 - 14:01

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.result?father=2057861&mother=2559026

Here is the pedigree.  I am still working on getting some photos and videos.  He is a solid black, large dog weighing 105 pounds and 26" at the withers.  He is very fast and agile, despite being a bit oversized.  Very nice head, bone and structure.  Very good drives, balanced in prey and defense, but not sharp or overreactive, but starting to see a little more reactivity at a year old.  Very nice strikes and grip.  Comes into drive without encouragement.


by ValK on 25 January 2019 - 18:01

apple, yes, that what i mean, dog fight.
as for protection training, the truth is that german shepherd shouldn't be trained for this. it used to be an inherited instinct, for purpose, dogs was used way before breed was established.
the peasants, who used these dogs over the centuries, didn't train them to protect livestock from predators and thieves, protect master and family members, guard and protect household. they did use training only to have control over dog's instinct to protect.
protection, particularly against superior opponent, extremely stressful act and cannot be implemented into dog through training. if dog is lacking inherited predisposition to do this, it will be just an imitation.
sure, one can find dog with such instinct. but key word is "FIND"  one, among today's hundreds of looking similar dogs.


by apple on 25 January 2019 - 18:01

One of the things I find interesting about this dog's ancestry is the number of top level dogs behind him. I realize many of them are far back in his pedigree and have a small genetic influence, but there is some back massing of many of these dogs. For any pedigree wonks, here are a few notable dog's behind him.
Titus zPS and a fair amount of zPS dogs
Held von Ritterburg and his sire Ingo von Rudigen
Bernd Lierberg
Fado von Karthago
Racker von Itztal
Mike von Bungalow
several Busecker Schloss dogs
Nick von Heiligenbosch
Timmy and Troll von der bosen Nachbarschaft
Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich
Gildo vom Korbelback
Yoshy von der Dollenwiese
Lord vom Gleisdreieck
Lanzo van Tiekerhook
Mutz vom Pelztierfarm
Cordon An-Sat
and many more






 


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