What causes this working difference? - Page 10

Pedigree Database

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by apple on 25 January 2019 - 18:01

Valk,
I have trouble following you as it appears English is not your primary language. No problem. You can find very good dogs that will fight a man that are not dog aggressive at all.
Years ago, I did have a K-9 handler who was into Czech dogs tell me that the old timers selected for dog/animal aggression because they believed it would transfer over to or enhance over all aggression. But I think most would agree that dog aggression is a pain and you can find serious dogs that are not dog aggressive.

by duke1965 on 25 January 2019 - 19:01

apple, that lineup you give of dogs in the pedigree, mean that actual dog can be anything between a sleeveretreever, a nervebag, handleragressive, pantspissing civil,nasty and/or ugly dog Wink Smile


by duke1965 on 25 January 2019 - 19:01

Valk, your last post on previous page is spot on, but wont be understand by anyone driven by fame and podium sportdogs LOL

by apple on 25 January 2019 - 20:01

What I see so far is a confident, masculine, good looking dog who is not handler aggressive and I predict will be civil. If your reference to being driven by fame and sport dogs is directed to me, that doesn't mesh with the lineup of the zPS and DDR dogs or even some of the dogs closer up in the pedigree.

by duke1965 on 25 January 2019 - 20:01

sorry, its not, and in general, good civil dogs are born that way and show it early on, not something that developes at older age

by ValK on 26 January 2019 - 05:01

Valk,
I have trouble following you as it appears English is not your primary language.

apple of course english isn't my first language. at least i don't know even one english speaking country with such bad luck to have experience of russian occupation with following communist regime for decades Tongue Smile

b.t.w. i didn't say - GSD need to be aggressive to dogs but contrary - GSD is not a breed, purposed to fight each other in bloody ring as a gambling or whatever such crap is called.


anyway, my point was that the inducement to overcome instinctual fear for own life and stand firm in protecting specimen of not own kind in the face of stronger and smarter opponent - such thing impossible to develop artificially by training. 
humans through millennia kept selection and mating the dogs, who did show such trait in real life events, to eventually embed into dog this instinct/needs to protect someone else beside own butt.
and here we come - any "pro" trainer easily, just with few sessions for few hundred bucks, can turn even one shitty dog into killing machine, who could protect you from anything moving and breathing, regardless of size. just on one condition - this dog must have somewhat visible prey drive.
most amazing part of this - millions of GSD owners does buy such obvious BS.

as for cool names in pedigree, duke is right. it could rise chance of positive probability for good dog but only on condition of constant matching of similar traits in mating pair
even then not all offspring will be clones of parents.
the lone mismatch have been inserted in trend of established line (that what commercial breeders doing constantly) and you can say goodbye to previous achievements at least in that particular branch of line, albeit famous names still in there.

my last dog and first one with pedigree, has famous ancestors too, among them 7 DDR Sieger, some of them multiple. so what?

i wouldn't say he was not good but he was my weakest german shepherd in comparison to 5 previous, albeit those 5 never had any sort of official pedigree or any papers for that matter. but you know what, those 5 were bred for certain real life purpose and not for famous names in pedigree and monetary gain.


by apple on 28 January 2019 - 11:01

I disagree Duke. Sounds like you are used to seeing overly sharp, overly defensive dogs, which is not so uncommon in all Czech lines. As I have said, civil simply means a dog will bite a person without any equipment. That doesn't mean the dog lights up at every person he sees.
Valk,
It is not about fame, coolness or money. It is about numerous dogs who had a reputation for being strong dogs in different ways making a genetic contribution. If pedigrees aren't a guide, why not just buy a BYB GSD out of the newspaper. Would you rather have a dog with a bunch of crappy genetics behind him? As for prey, it is only one trait that is useful in man work. Apparently you see it as a weakness or if a dog has good prey drive he has no other traits that make him a good dog.


by duke1965 on 28 January 2019 - 14:01

Apple, dont know what your problem is, why OVERLY sharp or defensive, what about normal dog with goodsharpness and courage, the dogs I see with good level of civil agression or sharpness, normally have this already as a pup, and it mellows down a bit when older, but never seen it start with nothing and grow into a civil dog, as after all it is genetic, so there from the start

furthermore it is, as allways matter of definition, for me the statement that civil simply means biting with equipment is totally incorrect, as a fearbiter will bite without equipment, a preydog will bite a jogger without equipment and a extreme prey dog that sees anything as prey will bite without equipment, but that is not civil to me


by apple on 28 January 2019 - 16:01

Maybe a better way to put it is that dogs that show defensive aggression as pups have a lower threshold for defense. I think they can develop into a strong dog, but also a dog with insecurities/nerves issues. Not all pups that show defensive aggression will make good working dogs. I prefer a dog with a higher threshold for defense, some discernment as to what is a threat and what isn't, and for defensive aggression to develop later when the dog is more mature and better able to handle the stress of defense. Such dogs are not destined to be weak or not civil. It is not unusual for dogs that make a display of defensive aggression without a threat, to turn out as not so tough dogs. Each dog is an individual and people have preferences for certain types of dogs for certain reasons.

by duke1965 on 28 January 2019 - 17:01

when you want to "develope " defensive agression later, can mean two things,

first, it was there to begin with, buth it was choice to work dog in prey only till matured, 

second, dog has NO civil agression, but is trained to show behaviour that can be mistaken for civil agression, 

I see a lot of the second, dogs that are whipped silly and look glazy and confused after I both tossed the sleeve, and the whip away Wink Smile

the first, I see a lot of decoys overacting on young dogs, also people testing older dogs or working in sport, a lot of decoys are overactive, where in my book, the helper should be passive and the dog active, anyway, what I mean to say is that if a young dog during whatever trainings, never shows any civil behaviour, most of times it isnot there






 


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