Working to get my dog to get more serious - Page 14

Apple, is there in your post a contradiction to what I am saying? It is hard to tell. If I train a sport dog, then on command the dog will exude all the energy he needs to be getting in a maximum drive. The dog does it on my command and not because he is on a training/competition field or in front of the decoy. ( Undesirable association)  If, on the other hand the dog works only because in competition venue  and the competition/training venue( field, decoy, equipment, other dogs working,...) is the source of his undesirable association with such work, then such dog is in the drive when and mainly because, he enters training or competition location which may be fine except it comes with the baggage of controlling the dog in drive. 

 There is no reason why the dog in competition as well as in real life training, could not be relaxed in "calm" mode until I give him the command to alert-attack. IMO, in that case, the intensity of the drive is at least as strong as it is when the dog is turned into being in drive because of the presence of the venue, equipment, decoy and so on. 

Using your example, I have found out that it is much easier to handle the dog around a bunch of decoys and their antics/actions if the dog is relaxed. ( I used to do PSA) That is not saying that such a dog can not turn on a dime and instantly get his drive up and engage the decoy when commanded to get from "calm" into "drive". 

Also as far as PSA and just about all other so-called sports goes unfortunately degenerated into point gathering event while forgetting what this sh1t is all about. Which is evaluating and dogs to be real. As far as I am concerned such bifurcation is not necessary.

 There is no reason why the training could not be "real' and at the same time deliver highest of the points. I have met many judges in IPO or whatever it is called these days and in other sports, who like the dog to have "real" attitude and not just playing like a Jester in order to look "good" and get points.  

Great information. Thanks

in my humble opinion, you cannot put a dog in, or out of drive by a human command, you can train the dog to be in control when in drive, but not shut off drive on human command.

then it depends on the individual dog, how hard it is to keep control when dog is "on "

As I said, many dogs in PSA are non FCI Mals and Mal X's. They genetically, are very high drive dogs. Some are so high in drive they probably won't get past the PDC, but would make excellent police dogs. I just don't think the real vs. sport opinion is that valid. There are some dogs that compete that are more "sporty" and would not make good police dogs because they just aren't tough enough or lack nerve strength. There are some dogs that do sport that if violently kicked in the head, would do serious harm to the attacker. You can argue that protection sports have degenerated into point gathering rather than an evaluation of a dog's true working ability, and I think that is more true of some sports than others, such as IPO, but a dog's temperament, drives, willingness to fight a man are genetically determined and brought out by training. It might require some retraining to take a sport dog to a police dog, which is the case in KNPV. It is a sport, but designed to help select for police dogs. But there is no reason not to try to elicit maximum drive from a dog as long as controlling that drive is part of the training. Some dogs need to be taught control early and some later. A bigger issue IMO, is when you have a very high drive dog and there is way too much training in bite work and not obedience, or not enough protection obedience started soon enough. One reason the GSD has fallen from favor is that many tend to go down in drive too much with corrections or can't maintain a high level of drive in sport or real work.

 

The problem today with( extreme) high drive dogs they need exellent handlers who can handle their drives
and many many handlers today can,t handle such dogs in controll

Have seen too many from this exellent dogs with poor handlers they get frustrated  and don,t know how to handle and blame it on the dog

Many sport and police  handlers are not made for high drive dogs they haven,t  that skills

 

I don't disagree with you, but I am more saying the early foundation training is done incorrectly which leads to problems later that are often not able to be corrected. For example, if you take a really high drive as a pup and every time he sees a decoy in a suit and gets to bite without any obedience as part of that training, you will end up with a dog that you might have very little control over. Then there is the issue of handlers getting a green dog and not really knowing enough about the dog because they haven't raised it and they use incorrect training approaches that get them bit or create unnecessary conflict in the training.

Duke: " in my humble opinion, you cannot put a dog in, or out of drive by a human command, you can train the dog to be in control when in drive, but not shut off drive on human command.

then it depends on the individual dog, how hard it is to keep control when dog is "on ""

Hans: Duke even though we have differences I respect you. Thus my disagreement with your statement above is honest and not governed by our adversarial relationship.
What you have said is a common misconception which I can show you is false.
I will without any condition state that you can most definitely put the dog in drive and since you can put the dog in drive you should also be able to take him out of the drive -which I call "defuse the dog"
example : Police officer is walking his dog through a park. Dog is out of drive sniffing around and pissing and so on and does whatever dogs do on a neutral walk. Then all of a sudden the officer sees a person which needs to be arrested. He is expecting that he will need to use a dog to do so. Thus he alerts the dog: "POZOR!. That brings the dog into drive.
Then the dog does his job - whatever it is like he chases and bites the BG. And then the handler can command the dog "ALL OK" and the dog should fall out of the drive. I do this training all the time and I assure you that it is a normal part of my training of a PP or LE dog.
Let's look to nature. The dog sees deer that puts him to drive. Kills the deer and now he is out of the drive which enabled him to kill it. No need for it anymore. This can be trained on command. A cheetah walks through a herd of antelopes. She is not hungry thus not hunting thus her prey drive is off. The predator is in "calm" mode. When the cheetah decides to hunt then she get's into prey drive. Same way I can walk with my dog through a park full of people with my dog out od drive in "calm" mode. And I can turn the drive on when I see an "enemy".
Same is true about defense drive.

Apple you are turning what I have said into discussion sport vs real life. That is not the point I was trying to make. I am saying that in sports or in real life the dog should be able to be on command put in the drive or out of the drive. It does not matter how much drive genetically the dog has either. 

 

Yes very true some handlers start with bitework without any obdience basics, the same I see
the BIG mistake decoys make that high driven dogs more  crazy with whips and most of them they don,t need this than that handlers get more problems control over this dogs.

Obdience and control is the most important part of all

 

I think the most important part of all it to make the dog work for and with the handler and not for his satisfaction to bite something. But this may be a too esoteric approach for most.