Working to get my dog to get more serious - Page 12

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by Centurian on 22 June 2018 - 16:06

Great Juno .. again please remember that I am constructive not destructive in posting. Not merely for you but for others too ..
But this is for you Juno specifically - do not out your dog in any practice sessions with a decoy until your dog outs gladly , willingly , freely 100% with the sleeve before you even think about putting the sleeve onto the helper. So I see some really great dogs , when transferring from the ball to the sleeve to be hesitant to out. This may occur or it may not with your dog.. I am feeling that it will. Because.... in the protection that I saw in the video .. he held on with a vengeance. That seemed to be his mindset and what he tried to get to work . So that is likely , maybe not , but likely that will transfer over to the switching from the ball to the sleeve. In this case I would safely back tie him and let him bite the sleeve and use another sleeve on a rope to entice him to let go of the first sleeve , which also should have a rope on it so that you can go back and forth as you would the ball. Or you might need another tact to get him to bite sleeve #1 outed , to bite sleeve #2. And if you see what I just wrote... then you know for sure , you proved , that he would done the same biting the sleeve on a helper at that point in a bite work session .

by Juno on 22 June 2018 - 16:06

Centurian,

I believe you have read my dog accurately and I did have the nagging doubt in the back of mind if whether the outing with the ball will transfer over to protection. I did forget to mention he worked with 2 different decoys that day - the second one being the one who is certified and decoys during competition who has never worked Zeus before and was quite impressed with the ease with which Zeus transferred over his biting to him with no hesitation or loss of bite force and even after all these heavy corrections that he has never been subjected too. I almost did not take him for training as he had a nasty cut on his left paw and I did not want to aggravate it and he was limping as he walked but he was going stir crazy at home as I was taking it easy with him. Obviously it did not phase him either.

I will try the 2 sleeve trick as I am doing with the ball and see how it goes. Thanks for your input.

by duke1965 on 22 June 2018 - 17:06

Juno, I would prefer the second way of out, enforced by the helper, only the helper should make the outfase shorter and as soon as the dog outs let him rebite as a reward, as to your dog its a game and you see the rebite after it takes to long showed confusion in the dog

also I would stop "feeding " the sleeve to the dog. let the dog go for the bite, instead of shoving it in to its mouth,this will make your dog more forward so to speak

Changing bite for a ball is a bad idea allways IMO, dont want to see desire for ball override desire for bite/fight ever, and by looking at the videos that is the last thing you want to do if you are working to get your dog more serious

by Juno on 22 June 2018 - 17:06

Thanks Duke,

I may not have been clear - the decoy in the video was not the certified decoy as he was filling in although he does decoy work. When the actual decoy showed up he did exactly as you mention - "only the helper should make the outfase shorter and as soon as the dog outs let him rebite as a reward, as to your dog its a game and you see the rebite". Unfortunately, we stopped filming during this session. Also, the reason the sleeve was being fed was because the first decoy was not wearing sufficient protective gear (it was in the 90s) and there were several instances when my dog lunged to get the bite and almost nailed him - that's when the decoy told me to not let him do that and he would feed him the bite. When the certified decoy came - he changed that along with the technique for the aus.

Also, what I meant about teaching the aus with the ball was not replace the bite for the ball but rather aus one ball for the other so he can hopefully learn to "aus" without compulsion, but as Centurion mentioned in his post it may not work with my dog, so he suggested the 2 sleeve trick. Hope this clarifies it.

Again, appreciate your input.

by duke1965 on 22 June 2018 - 18:06

teaching the dog the command out with ball only is fine , secondly you should not let different people work your dog when you are still teaching him, and I think it is not fair to the helper in the videos to put him on internet and then write that the professional helper came after this one worked your dog and did a better job, JMO

by Juno on 22 June 2018 - 19:06

Hi Duke, quite the contrary I have the utmost respect for the original decoy - he is our club's TD and he himself said that he was filling in as he did not want the training session to go to waste. Not sure if you speak Spanish but if you turn up the volume you can probably hear the conversation between him and the decoy going back and forth on the technique. So, rest assure it is not my style to back stab anyone.

As for as not letting different people work my dog while he is still learning - a little too late for that as in my search for the right club/trainer to train I have gone through at least 7 decoys and almost as many different new locations before I found this club. One common element - my dog had absolutely zero issues doing bitework.. Like I mentioned before, I have done everything possible (albeit inadvertently) to screw up my dog, but he is like the energizer bunny - keeps on ticking. Hopefully, I will stop messing up from this point on wards. Time will tell, but I am indeed blessed and lucky to have the dog I have.

by Centurian on 23 June 2018 - 11:06

Juno
First , thank you for being respectful and reading my comments, whether you agree or disagree. The difficulty with dog teaching is that many people have different ways. To me that has always been a problem stemming from what techniques and methods people have learned. There comes a point in time for someone, when truly they understands themself , their dog and what they are both doing : those trainers transcend beyond using methods and techniques. Then again many people never learn to look past their nose and they never improve , getting stuck in and only capable of doing what they only have learned .. Like a dog getting stuck in prey drive and unable to function beyond that mode....
Juno the advice I try to give is based on the dog. I have a rule : the dog Always has the answers to my questions [ about teaching it ] and the dog always dictates how , what , when , why and where [ the point in teaching ] that I do . I do not train by methods or techniques  !  I teach on the basis of putting myself in the dog's place , and by developing a relationship with my dog . That relationship , which allows me to teach and florm a team approach , is based on trust , loyalty , understanding teach other , rules , communication , respect and so on ...
I understand Duke's comment. In the generality his comment has merit. Where I am different with people and dogs is that sometimes,  I address the specific , individual dog and owner/handler Regarding : . Working with other decoys.   Actually , the truth lies in the fact that sometimes that is what the dog should do  , and at other times it is NOT what should be done. There is no 'way'; . Depends on what you want the dog to learn , and how . So , how do we decide.. the dog will tell us !   I always , with every dog and person step back and THINK !!!!!  I think about the dog , the handler / decoy and the interaction in regards to what the dog is learning and what needs /is taught. So to illustrate : if the dog is not learning what you want it to learn or teach it using  different decoys ,  and if the decoys are not on the ame pafe in the teaching resulting in mixing the dog all up , then Duke is correct 100% .  Coomon sense inconsistancy is not best or advisable. Then again , with my dogs , even puppies as well as young adults, I have them work on anybody [ male/female, different races , etc.] , anywhere , at any time ! However I keep all variables in the working exactly the same such that there is cosistancy , clear and prcise teaching for what I want the dog to learn and master. I do this because what I am communicating to the dog is that  ' the person [ it interacts with ] doesn't matter . The lesson allows for the dog to early on realize/ learn that people to never be an issue.  However,  if one decoy is saying one thing to the dog , another decoy says another thing in the work , then .. Duke is correct .. I do not want the dog to be unable to learn correctly what I want taught. my point : there is we do this or we do that , which fits all dogs. 
Why I mentioned the sleeve. Again ... the dog dictates if we use the sleeve ,  a ball , a person and so on to teach what we want it to learn . I understand what Duke states and to a degree there is truth. If I want the dog to learn to engage people ,  that is what is taught : to engage the person not the equipment. . Fair enough . We don't want a real dog fixated on equipment biting . But , the other truth is that sometimes we have to use tools to teach the dog what we want it to learn , to understand and to master. To repeat : to me dog training is not about methods or techniques !!  So if you want to teach this dog to out.. take the man out of the equation . Teach the dog , 'out' , apart from the dog desling with the man  .  That simple . 
What did I see ? A dog asked to out and did not in an encounter . Forget techniques. I step back and ask myself  WHY ? I ask the dog Why ? Because Juno .. if I do not understand the why in the dog's head , then how am I going to go about teaching him ?  Is it genetic , is the dog confused ,does it want to persist in possession , does it not even know the concept of out/giving spmething up from it's mouth.  I don't need the maen encpungering the dog to be cleaning this up . It just confounds the dogs thinking as I want to teach it the lesson .  One option , use a tool to teach the dog 'out' to show the dog it is in it's interest to out . Change his internal motivations that is if need be   .  Forexamople oif the dog loves to bite , gthen use a tool to teach him outing brings him to bites, if the dog loves to fight and sruggle , then teach him using a tool that bouting brings on a better struggle , If a dog likes to bite a person or posses ... ditto use a tool to tell him the way that he gets these things ! 

      Other people don't care , they just go through the ritual and protocols , I do not . So I see the dog choked off the bite , [ we used to choke the dog off the sleeve on the ground to make it out 30 years ago ] . Not always the most productive way to teach 'ou' !. That is not obedience most often it is complainace !!
You wrote that you play two balls with the dog. I want to influence Juno,  'how you think' and to be avle to see , ' what is that dog telling you' ? The dog is telling you that he is not protesting the 'out ' in two balls interaction , yes. Then use that interaction scenario to teach him that when he is on the sleeve , with no decoy on the sleeve , the  out. Later slowly  afdter the dog is 'motivated ' to out when told to , then transfer the process to the  dog centered on theman .. that is to say bite  ,  fight , out  . Change this so that this does not become the dog wanting an object. object orientated. That the dog is , as reference earlier , not prey , object orientated .
Back to the teaching out. When I see the dog choked off the bite .. what we do is to make the dog conscientious of us , as well as the decoy . For some***  dogs, their mindset becomes : now I have two people to be concerned** about - the guy in front and the guy in back of me. I highlighted the words 'some' and   'concern'. For some dogs NOT ALL , this come into fruition . Other dogs can care less. And to add ,  maybe some dogs need this mindset , you better think about me . ALL DOGS ARE DIFFERENT. But if it does become an issue to your dog , you have impacted your relationship with your dog and these dogs do not work as optimally . Your dog should be mindful of you , ready willing and able to take your direction and your orders. Being mindful , in teamwork with you , is different than being fearful /concerned about you . You are partners . There is a balance in obedience . The dog must obey you , but from where does that obedience originate.  For some dogs it is fear of being corrected, physically punished . That to me takes away from the optimal performance of the dog. So,  I ,   will try to get into the head of the dog and change his outlook , motivation and behavior.  If I can attend to the dog's needs , desires and use those to motivate the dog to want to ' out'  more than I want it to when I ask it to .. is that not better off than me having to physically assert myself , and for the dog . If I have to constantly discipline a dog , that pisses me off. And then I am occupied with checking my own emotions. I never get emotional training the dog, emotions have no place in interacting with my dog !! If I can teach a dog that it is advantageous to 'out' when I ask .. then you are in like Flint ! IMOp , in certain avenues ... I do not feel that a dog is ready to work for real  on a person , keying in on a person and encountering  , until it has learned the out.  I teach my 12 , 16 , 20 week pups the concept of outing [ to their advantage]. Bottom line ..... dog either you control yourself , on your own accord and take my direction or I will make you take my direction.. One way another , you teach the dog , but one of these ways will be the end result .

  Teach ' out ' first , away from the decoy then apply apprproptaitely in scenarios.  You wouldn't ask a child to solve a problem with out first haven taught  that child the tools to do the  math , would we ? 

   Juno , this is just a bit of what I think .. this is the short version .. You have to decide and the decoy ,  how and what you teach your  dog ... but this will hopefully give other people something to ponder over. 

by Juno on 23 June 2018 - 16:06

Centurian,

I always appreciate your post as I am genuinely here to learn and to make sure I am not ruining my dog. As far as being respectful, that should be a given there is no reason to be otherwise whether I agree or disagree. In this case I agree with what you wrote as I believe in getting my dog to do what I ask because he genuinely wants to do that. I have been exposed to the old school with my previous dogs and was always leary of it, still am, as I do not like hurting my dog. This might have been apparent in the videos in the way I was correcting my dog. My dog is strong and can handle it as is apparent, but that does not make it right. I want to do it the right way as I believe I owe it to my dog as he clearly has the right stuff, to his breeder who did a wonderful job of finding a puppy that matched what I asked for a 100%. She is well known for doing that and I know she was very reluctant to give him up and would have preferred to have kept him for her own breeding program but felt it was the right thing to do. Lastly, I genuinely enjoy spending time with my dogs (all of them). I come to this forum and also to some other forums with an intent to learn and there are some I pay extra attention to - you being one of them, Gustav (or Cliffson) depending on the forum, and a few others as you have the experience and knowledge of having done that. I equate it to my own knowledge and experience in my own field of expertise which is as far away from dog training as it can be.

So, please keep it coming.

by Centurian on 23 June 2018 - 17:06

Juno .. starting out .... As I state , One day like everyone else I held the dog on leash for the very first time. If we never made a mistake[s] training an teaching a child or a dog .. then we never ever had taught a child or a dog. ! We all ,. even the best make mistakes. What I admire about you .. like myself , your strive to learn and better yourself and your dog . What is important is that we learn.
Juno -- Let me tell you a short story : 15 years ago a friend of mine 1000 miles away called to tell me about her GS. She had that day a session with a very very very experienced helper .. One of THE BEST !!!! I won't mention names but you could say in a manner of speaking when it comes to protection , he wrote the book . Her dog did not do well in the bite work that very first session . In short I asked for an exact summary of what the helper did and what the dog did. I gave her my advice . I told her what the dog needed , what the helper should not have done and what should have ben done. So she was still upset and she decided to work with other people .The End : her dog went on to get Sch 3 and made USA history in Germany at the World Sieger Show. The moral : even the most expert , most experienced people can have an off day and make a mistake. So , keep this in mind when you train your dog.. Be kind to yourself if you think you made a small , minor mistake for we all do now and then ..... And try to ask questions , how , why , etc etc and think , how do I say this to my dog , etc etc ... think what you dog is saying to you , and what you say to your dog just as my friend's dog was telling us ... :-)

by Juno on 23 June 2018 - 18:06

Well - training tomorrow. Lets see how it goes.


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