by Mindhunt on 26 May 2019 - 20:05
No problem MrDarcy, I guess I thought it was about animals at first but it did definitely evolve to dogs.
I had a horse that a cow was in love with, she would spend hours grooming him and sought him out to sleep next to. When my horse died suddenly, she was despondent and died shortly after, I think of a broken heart since she was a healthy young cow.
by TIG on 27 May 2019 - 02:05
by Entwerfer Haus on 27 May 2019 - 09:05
When I put my old man down last year, my female mourned for weeks. He was put down here, at home and I kept her separate. To this day I don't know if that was good or bad. Would she have been more upset watching him take his last breath in front of her? She was only in another part of the house, so I'm sure she heard and felt what transpired. She is better now, we both are, but I still see it in her eyes when I talk about him
I still mourn and always will. There'll never be another Granit.
They were visibly in love and had been together 8 years. It was as clear as the nose on my face how much she loved him and he respected her loyalty.
Over almost 2 decades, I've seen all kinds of relationships build within my group. The many personalities that could make or break a pack.
There has never been any doubt in my mind that animals do indeed have real emotions and show them, if you know your pet. The eyes are the window to the soul.
Just this small post has brought me to tears.
by Hundmutter on 27 May 2019 - 17:05
Thanks to TIG for two very interesting TED talks; but as with a lot that is said on the subject, both talks raise as many questions as they answer.
Let's look for example, at the first, Greg Burns, video. The project to use MRI scans to read dogs' brains is interesting, and fine as far as it relates to using dogs that are well trained (or young) and can be shaped to put their heads in the right place and stay still, etc. The last MRI Scan I had, I put my knee in the correct place I was told and lay still. I did not need to be fed hot-dogs. Positioning required a few words from the operator; it did not require a verbal response from me. Some humans (and I'm not just talking children !) can still not lie still sufficiently for the scan to be read properly, but most of us manage it.
When the dog thinks of its person, perhaps when the owner is absent, does it think of them as a source of food ? Almost certainly. Does it think of them SPECIFICALLY as a source of hot-dog rewards ? Possibly. Does it think of the PROCESS of getting the hot-dog from them, in abstract, i.e. what it needs to DO to earn them ? Maybe not. The dog is 'seeing' the absent owner in it's 'mind's eye', but is that the same as the 'mind's eye' we as humans understand; or is it something more specific to the way the dog's brain works ?
See what I mean about species differences ? Not to say there are NO reactions; or that the species-specific reactions are any LESS valuable than human ones. But they cannot be blithely assumed to be exactly the same. Nor am I arguing against the idea in Carl Safina's talk that humans would be a lot better if we collectively were more aware of the damage we do to our planet's ecology and other species sharing it.
It is not automaticaly 'human arrogance' to doubt that all animals' emotional responses are the SAME; they may be equally VALID, but they are not necessarily exactly like our human ones.
by Mindhunt on 27 May 2019 - 18:05
Entwerfer Haus, I am so sorry. I am still mourning Ronin, never be another dog like him. I had him for 16 years and he was with Isis for near 14. Quint was very tightly bonded to him and was his nursemaid. Ronin years ago when we first brought Isis home, used to chirp to let us know she had to go out. He was dead on every single time. He also used to alert us to her impending diarrhea explosion (coccidia). He knew when storms were coming to within 10 minutes, who was having a seizure, heart attack, migraine (he used to try leading my son to bed prior to his aura, then gently crawl in bed with him and croon to him so softly).
Dogs have the same left brain/right brain differentiation as humans do, same neurotransmitters, same hormones, and yes have similar affect and cognition as humans. I do believe animals have similar emotions as we do, science is proving it over and over. Of that I am glad.
by Entwerfer Haus on 28 May 2019 - 10:05
I am so sorry for your loss, as well. The hardest part about owning a dog, is letting them go.
I knew if I fell in the house, I could rely on him to get my phone. He always alerted me to any impending weather or illness in the house. When a pup would drop a toy off the bed, he would get down, pick it up, get back on the bed and drop it for them. He would go upstairs and get any specific item (that he knew) and bring it back to me. I would imagine he knew dozens of hand commands and quite frankly, many of my facial expressions and body language.
My dogs are not kennel dogs, they're house dogs and the relationship I build with them is on trust and respect. They are part of my everyday life and I talk to them throughout the day and in everything I do. They were completely in tune with every aspect of us all living together.
Me and the old lady will never forget him, I know this.
I have a young male here now (from the same Kennel as Granit's father came from) and though he's no Granit (not that any dog could be), he is a very nice boy. Over the summer I'll be working with him both physically and mentally to figure out his capabilities. I'm very excited to have him here and it's been a serious struggle finding a pup like him. But going back to the Kennel in Germany was the key.
by Mindhunt on 17 June 2019 - 17:06
Interesting talks with my trainer friends, certified behaviorist friend experienced with working dogs, and veterinarian friends who are also into working dogs. I have one trainer friend that insists dogs do not have emotions and are instinct driven animals that are all about dominance, he will agree they do feel fear or pain or happiness, but it is all in pursuit of dominance and a human NEEDS to show them who is boss and dominate their dog. Interestingly enough he uses coercive methods of training even with puppies, no introduction of the command, just force and corrections until they sit, or step on the leash to down them and let them fight the leash until they either choke or give up, if they continue to fight, it is not pretty. My other trainer friend feels dogs do not have emotions like us, but they do feel basic instinctive emotions when they are thwarted/successful in their pursuit of basic needs like food, water, attention, etc.. He did believe in teaching puppies commands in a fun manner, with reward and play until they understood the command, only then were consequences introduced, however he was all about the dog is a tool, either to get the bad guy, earn points, or whatever the end result the training was for, no other real need for mental stimulation other than training, no affection, dogs are dogs and do not need affection or anything such as that, they don't understand affection and it messes the dog up when there is affection. My behaviorist friend who also trains working dogs is full on agreement that animals have emotions similar to bright children and uses this in training with motivation and positive methods, there are consequences only after the dog understands the commands and they are always temperament, age, and training level appropriate. She uses what drives or motivates the dogs in training, she says no sense in competing against a dog being a dog, just use it to reward, she is VERY successful and has even rehabilitated dogs that other trainers have given up on (including Cesar Millan and I don't feel Cesar is a real trainer). My veterinarians who have been active in working dog training, field trials, shutzhund, etc. all feel dogs have emotions like my behaviorist and feel we do a disservice to the dogs when we don't account for emotional processes in dogs. Just thought it was interesting the correlation on training methods and whether the person believes a dog has emotions similar to humans or not. Just a for fun sharing......
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