Andre von der NexxJenn 9-11 months Obedience - Page 4

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by Hired Dog on 15 November 2019 - 17:11

Cent, I have used an E collar for 30 plus years. I find it to be THE best training tool available. You seem to have a problem with everything everyone else says. What is the problem with the E collar, or with Bart Bellon and NEPOPO?

by Centurian on 16 November 2019 - 06:11

Hired , Everything has a time and a place. I am not opposed to the e collar in and of itself . It is just another tool to help each our dogs and has it's usefulness at times.

And before the e collar … did not people train their dogs to very high levels in very serious endeavors ? I do not have problems with the collar per se , but what I do notice is the WHY , the HOW and the WHEN people utilize the e collar. That to me is the issue . First , the way I see people at times use the e collar and what they expect of the dog is so out of normal and so artificial . Moreover , at what time does this simply imgerfere with people going out and just having fun and the dog having fun . These competitions have been centered on ego , money , etc etc that people are made to have to believe that dog has to work with hairline precision in order to get on the podium . Sir , I never ever let anyone in life do my thinking , make me feel that I have to do this or that or accomplish this or that . To me this is just plum ludicrous that people have to go to that extreme using the e collar simply because they want to be the winner. But it is not atheir expense , it is at many times the dog's expense.

You mean to say that people cannot simply teach the dog to perform with reasonable exactitude and accuracy without an e collar. Now , for people that do not compete and have not used the e collar I say this : In order to use the e collar most often you have to teach the dog the exercise first then apply the e collar usage. [ you can teah just with nthe r colar first but it is best teach the idea to the dog first]. IMOp I teach the dog the very very very first time ecatly , absolutely , what I weant it to do . The rest just goes from that point on . Secondly , for the average person training and maybe reading this post , there are a lot of pitfalls one can make with the e collar , I have even seen Judges at seminars screw up using an e collar. Last point , if you fail when using the e coallr , you just threw out your last trump card , you have nothing in your bag of tricks to fall back on in dealing with the dog .

For the record the e collar can be a kind way to teach a dog .. but I think something is drastically off if you simply cannot communicate to the dog otherwise and I think something is off if people are so driven to go to EXTREMES in a competition. Of course this is an opinion and a shared thought .. to each their own… I don't act with hairline precision in life , except in my profession , why would I put that onto my dog ??

by Hired Dog on 16 November 2019 - 07:11

Cent, I do NOT compete in dog sports, I dont believe they have anything to offer in terms of real life work.
As far as the E collar, it is not as complicated for people to use for basic work. It does get somewhat more complicated for advance work, yes.
I agree that the dog should know first what you want out of it, before the E collar is employed, but, people have also used it to train in avoidance and escape. I do require instant obedience but because I dont compete I do not need precision.

by Centurian on 16 November 2019 - 16:11

I have to greatest respect and the most admiration for people that utlize their dogs in service , any kind of service ,especially those services that the handler's/owmer's life is put on the line. I admire and respect tjhose people so much mmore than anyone truyoing to gain a trophy !! Our dog were given to us to serve us / makind. But many of these competitions have gone way beyond the fun and love working with the dog . Thet have turned the dogs into a commodity , a way of making fame and money as well as way to boost the ego of the owner. That is to say competing has gone past the event being as pastime but more of an even that exploits the dog rahter than a dog that serves us . Many dog sports have become money making enterprises . The dog world has become big business and many people are exploited by many people trying to get them onto the podium .

So , a little current via e collar , to enforce what you want the dog to do … well … Why cannot , does not someone be the enforce/ reinforcer instead of that current having to be the enfocer / reinforcer . … just saying. I tell you with certainty , my dogs never ever ever want to hear the word "NO" nor do they prefer me disciplining them over following my cue. If they are going to be desiciplined they know why and that it is from me, myself . In reality ,it is my task when I teach my dogs something , anything [ they ate capapble of ] that they have put into their mind and heart : that they want to do that thing , more than I want to ask them to do it [ without an e collar. ] … That is obedience as opposed to complying .

Again the e collar does have it's time and place. Now there are a lot of pitfalls with these of the e collar . Hired for you , thatbworks and I don't think you put the dogmthroughnthe ringer to get a hairline accurate sit for a prize. One of the difficulties withn the average person , unlike you who are experienced , is often , the dog figures out what is being done and by whom with the e collar. Dogs can and do habour Resentment . One time during a Ring trial someone was practicing with their dog using an e collar [ a very very experienced handler ] moments before their turn . The dog turn around , went up on the hanlder and bit the hell out of her !! Another feature that many pet owners encounter is : Collar on , I comply , collar off , I do as I please. That is not an obedient dog .--- I have an expression : I can get any one to do anything I want by putting a gun to their head " . In that use of the e collar and that respect that is not obedience , it is compliance.

So , rhetorically I ask many this question with or withour e collar use : " at one point does your dog learn to listen to you ? " Just plum listen to you ? For the record , regarding problem solving , for some situations I can see the average home owner needing something they can rely on , but even when it comes to problem solving the e collar is not always the best solution … Not to mention : aside from genetic predominately based problems 999% of the problems arise because the Relationship between the owner and the dog is totally out of normally what it shold be.
Hired , why I have something to say …. simply is because I care about people and their dogs … Many people that read the posts are not very experiencd and perhaps a good are experienced. But when I see seminars per video of someone teaching people positive and negative uses of e collar to compete with the dog , to teach a dog to maybe get a few extra stinking points.. well … just well … and that is a biased subjective thought . Personally give me a dog with no title that has the ability and heart to service me and the people …

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 16 November 2019 - 22:11

As a Service Dog Handler and an IPO/IPG Enthusiast, I can tell you that IPO Obedience very much translates into real life obedience.

The best obedience for public space and public access to have is IPO Obedience.

Precision and Reliability is everything. When you train for precision you train for reliability. Not just want to, but also have to.

by Hired Dog on 17 November 2019 - 05:11

Cent, the dog is absolutely working for me, fully expecting a reward when it does a great job and I pay very well for that type of work, but, the dog must also know that there are consequences for not doing that job.
The E collar is my communication device that allows me to reach/deliver that reminder at a distance and without having any equipment attached to my dog, other then the E collar of course.

The collar on/off listen/not listen is because some people do not understand the proper use of the collar. On the otehr hand, I know many guys that simply put the E collar on their dog when they go to work and take it off when they get home. It does give you an extra peace of mind, if you need it.
Personally, I find it much simpler to use, it eliminates uses of long lines and timing issues, it does not involve negative body language from the handler toward the dog. How many dogs have you seen dogs cringe when the handler pulls back on the leash with a prong? How many have you seen get amped up when they see the handler change body positioning to deliver a correction?
I dont need nor want any of that, I want a happy dog working with me, looking up at me when it wants affection, happily executing a command I gave because of the relationship we have together...thats my idea of a working dog.

by Centurian on 17 November 2019 - 13:11

BE what you write is correct about precision .Heel is heel , sit is sit , down is down and come is come- they afre absolutes. Heel is an exact , absolute precision . What I am reference when I write precison in the competitons is making the dog so robotic , down to a hairline response that goes beyond normal that the precision that is demanded of the dog is unnatural . For the average person , they do not need a go heeling with attention and it does not matter if the sdog when it sits is a 1/4 second slower. I was at a Sch 3 gtrial a few years ago , and my SV friend tolok me as he was the judge for that trial . Two dogs were going for Sch 3 . One dog was slightly slower going down in motion , again slightly slower *** , but the dog had the greatest outlook /attitude , worked very happy and exact . That dog was picture perfect thoughout the entire OB performance ,and did not miss a beat and my friend deducted that dog 3 points. The second dog doing the down in motion hit the ground like lightening but he cringed and the dog performed but you can see didnt enjoy what it was doing and didn't desire to down - in it's heart for he downed from fear. My SV Judge friend asked about my tnoughts on the SCH 3 trial and because we were good friends I told him exactly what I thought. The first dog working with exact heel potision but a 1/2 second slower downing lost points and that was by far a better dog and better trained. WEll .of curse of the handler used an e collar he might have gotten that dog to down just a bit faster , . But how fast does the dog have to down in reality to be considered immediately obedient. ? If you say ' one one thousand wouldn't that be enough time within reason for that dog to have downed. ? Then is it reasonable to ask the dog to down faster than you can blink your eyes' ? The second dog IMOp had the potential to be a great dog but because of the training MOP the dog faired worse- yes it went down faster but it had the wrong outlook and attitude about what it did . It was not obedient due to the training it was complying !! I voiced this to my firend the SV Judge !! And I said to him frepsectfully " I know you have to follow the rules but to me this is a little bit of hypocrisy ' Then we had a beer ..
So BE obedeince is obedience and in nthat respect needs to be exact , and a heel by definition is an exact precise position , but I am not referencing precision in that respect that I see in the high end competitons now a day and how the e collar is being utlized . I am talking about a requirement placed onto the dog in competiton that goes beyond normal precision such that it is unreasonable , artificial , simply because a human has the need for glory . Why do people have to feel that they 'have a better dog' or that they are a better handler ? BTW , Many times in competiton the dog has nothing to do with the result , for many times it is a handler error handling the dog or a training error by the handler .

by apple on 18 November 2019 - 08:11

As for precision, it is no different than sports humans participate in such as gymnastics, shooting sports, football, basketball, etc. It doesn't have to be about ego. It can be about the challenge of bringing the best performance out of a dog for a particular sport. I don't think sport has much to do with working dogs, such as in police apprehension. The exception is KNPV, where while it is still a sport, it is specifically designed to help select for police dogs and the precision required is minimal. It is a whole different culture. They are hard on the dogs and if the dog doesn't cut it they are quickly washed out, whereas in the states, most people competing at sports consider their dog a companion and will keep the dog even if it is lacking. In KNVP, it is not so much about becoming a better handler in terms of precision, but rather, being able to train and handle an extreme dog.

by ValK on 19 November 2019 - 10:11

i agree with centurian in regard of sport approach in preping dogs.
seems "precision" for most part materializes in unnatural, "robotic" behavior.

by Centurian on 19 November 2019 - 18:11

Everybody has different thoughts .. that is ok with me , I respect what all the posts have their opinions and thoughts. So in converations I do not take a postion about who has to be rightt or who is wrong. Having said that to keep the dialogue friendly , let me share my thoughts not just for the posters but those that read and do not post.

First when I trained for my own athletic competitive events.. I did not use nor did any of my competitors an electronic device to enhance my /our perfomance on ourselves to win !…. Why would I do that to my dog ?? just saying . I would never ever do to my dog what I would not want done to me. I would never ever treat my dog how I would not wanted to be treated. In general I did write that at times for peoole there is a time and place appropriately for e collar use.. So I am not arguing about the e colar use . I am asking : why the need for high end sports ? BTW , the e collar is banned in some countires , esoecially for the use in training and/or competing in sports for reasons !!

Secondly , I am not writing this to brag- let me make this perfectly clear. I careless about what I accomplished . However I have been USA Nationally tested and accredited in the use of e collar training with canines . The average person , and maybe some so called professionals do not know and/or understand that CURRENT affects the dog very differently*** than other negative reinforcers !!! That is something to think about !!! In short , I leave it at that !!… But think of it in this light , if you were going to take a test, and if you were thinking that if you, 'got it wrong ', the punishment was that you were going to ' feel the current and get zapped ' [ low level , high level ] how do you think that in truth that would affect your thinking and your performance … ?

I had a K9 police officer friend that wanted to use the electric current to have his sport dog reliably out. He trained canines for 30 years - he did PSA and he bred malinois for state police. He had one tough mother malinois , that would not out. I offered to help him , but , he knew it all . I turned to another friend and I said " he is going to mess it up - I am telling you that this dog will figure it out ". So he used the juice to have the dog out from the upper inner arm , in PSA . Two weeks later my other friend said to me " hey , did you hear what happened to our friend the officer ?" . I replied 'no " and he then informed me " he used the juice on the dog when the dog was biting the decoy's arm jacket … and … the dog immediately came down and bit the guy in the leg !!!". The moral : Dogs can figure out the e collar use real fast !! Even the most experienced people using the e collar can screw up in it's use. !! This officer was very proficient in using the e collar BTW . Also there are a number of times I knew people that trained with the e collar and because of the context and situation the dog developed what is called " superstitous behavior '- meaning the dog now associated that current with another altogether addititional environmental stimulus. So when the dog exeprienced that newly associated stimulus , well , just just !! So for the novices , if you use the e collar you have to be know what you are doing ! Dogs can and do harbour Resentment and they are always trying to stay one stpe ahead of you !!!!

Rhetorically , why cannot , does not your dog learn simply learn to listen to you ? In my training . I tell you that I am the reinforcer or the enforcer . That is my oersonal biased outlook . IMOp , if the dog's motivation is very very very HIGH and if I teach extraordinarily exact , there is no reason on earth that I would [ or I do ] need an e collar to enhance performance. Now some dogs by nature respond / act faster than others - and if your dog happens to Naturally , genetically , act/ respond a slightly slower than another dog , do you honestly think that you are being fair to the dog when you hit the dog with current to make it what it is not ? Just saying ….


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