CHOOSING A 6 MONTH OLD PUP WITH CIVIL DRIVE - Page 8

Apple, I sold several dogs like this to KNPV, and got them back, in general, KNPV is a sport as well as IPO and many trainers and clubs are not looking for the challenge, can put a bunch of videos up from dogs I got back from KNPV, and from czech and german police, which are allmost all in USA law enforcement now

The GSD from my breeding I bought back this week from KNPV, same issue, social dog, but wrong response to hard(unfair) corrections and bad response on use of Ecollar.

having said that, there are people in KNPV that want strong dogs and can work with them,you mentioned Dick van Leeuwen, he breeds real strong dogs and knows and loves to work with them, but he knows the problem, not everybody in KNPV and dutch police is able to work dogs like that.

but if you want to learn about breeding and working hard dogs, you better get him over to usa instead of some other clowns I see giving seminairs these days

duke1965:
I dont think it is problem to have high prey and high civil agression in one dog

i guess that's a personal preference but from point of predictability and reliability in the real life work, high prey dogs less suitable due to more impulsive reaction to surrounding than that dogs who's also have strong aggression but at same time strong dominant foundation instead of high prey.

have to disagree with that statement, but when selecting dogs, i test overall suitability for individual client/job, not so much looking into percentages etc, must say that Im surprized sometimes by dogs with less than ideal balance of drives, but turning out to be suitable for certain job

no two dogs are the same, and good dogs come in wide range of balance of drives

that's true, not all dogs can be same but general similarities in basic temperament are possible through specialized approach to selection for breeding.
as example - the kennels who's producing dogs for sport. every dog has own zest but in general they do not differ too much.
my statement above based on own experience from dealing with dogs, who was bred especially for dominance.
the prey was not desirable trait in purpose, these dogs was been bred for.
after that i was dealing with today type of dogs, in whom prevailing strong prey but absent or weak domination.
comparing two of these types, hands down, the first type more reliable albeit not as much flashy/picturesque as second type.

same discussion but upside down, any dog, working mainly from prey or civil, should have courage and strenght to back it up :)

Valk,
If I remember correctly from some other post, you are from the former DDR. Is that correct? If it is, it would explain your preference for dominance in dogs because that was a trait often emphasized in the old DDR dogs and they tended to have low prey drive. Personally, I think the whole DDR GSD thing is largely hype. They tended to bring bone, large heads and pigment to the breed. Some were great dogs, but as Barenfang mentioned in another post, things evolve. Dominance is a trait that has some value in that can bring power to the bite work. But so can prey. Plus, too much dominance or a rank dog is just a pain in the ass. IMO, people tend to see prey as a less than serious drive, when it can bring a lot of intensity and motivation to work. And individual dogs do differ very much in terms of traits and drives. Dominance and reliability have nothing to do with each other.
Duke,
You support what I am saying. Not many people can train dogs like Dick breeds, and IMO, that has led to a dilution in the GSD. There is large market for working line dogs that are essentially pets whose novice owners want for PP also. They would never be able to handle a good dog from one of Dick's breedings. He lives in a small country and can keep his bloodlines going for himself and a few people who want that type of dog. More commercial , working line GSD breeders will not succeed if they focus on producing dominant, socially aggression dogs that the general public or inexperienced K9 handlers can't handle.

Duke:
same discussion but upside down, any dog, working mainly from prey or civil, should have courage and strenght to back it up :)

talking about predictability and reliability i don't mean exclusively protection abilities of dog. what i mean is related to dog's behavior in any possible situation and circumstances on daily basis.

apple:
you are from the former DDR. Is that correct?

it would explain your preference for dominance in dogs because that was a trait often emphasized in the old DDR dogs and they tended to have low prey drive.

no, i'm not from former DDR. nevertheless GSDs in all Eastern block due to isolation from West, did come from DDR stock.
in general you're right about overhyped perception in regards of these dogs. or more precise - the shortage of knowledge about these dogs in western society. sure, these dogs was bred for goal, different from one, set among western breeders. but even in this eastern breeding was sort of division - civilian breeding and military breeding.

Yes, the East Germans has show line and working lines just like the West Germans.  On his site, Werner Schulz of Parchimer Land, a breeder of DDR GSDs in Germany writes that the majority of DDR dogs working at the Berlin Wall did not have good nerves. 

Apple, I almost bought a puppy from Werner about five years ago. Communications with him, he was very
liberal with informationn about the DDR dogs. Very good man to talk with about the old dogs from DDR.

Wish I had pulled the trigger and made the purchase!

if you talk to sportpeople today, all civil dogs have bad nerves LOLLOL