Sport to LE? Who's done this? - Page 15

Valk, glad you enjoy the writing.  I also enjoy reading post, especially when I can relate a past experience with it.  They often bring back fond memories of the dogs.

Prager, The name ‘reverse mask’ makes sense.  Unfortunately, the dog came with no papers or tattoos.  Xrays, vetcert and airway bill was it.  His journey to the states originated in the CR, and that’s where I was told he was from.  On that trip of testing dogs, I remember the kennel owner saying he had brought in about 20 dogs from CR in the last few days and Beny was one.  That would have been interesting to see if he went back on Ex Reidstern.  Not sure if it will help because he had no papers, but I will describe him as I remember.  Beny was slightly undersized.  The older he got the taller he looked.  Could have had better bone.  Nice dark eyes.  His hair didn’t seem to be as long as others and it was somewhat coarse and thick, especially when younger.  As he aged it felt softer and appeared more normal.  

When you said tough type of dog, that would be the first thing out of my mouth if I had to describe him.  One of the toughest I had trained or worked with.  He had this presence of confidence.  Hard to describe.  I don’t know how Americanized you are, so this may have you scratching your head, but everywhere he went his body language was saying, who wants some?  Still, he was approachable, aloof, good friend once he knew you, loved his family.  Everywhere he went, he acted like it was his own.  Extremely athletic and agile.  Excellent tracking dog.  Real good endurance.  You put him up when you were tired, he was never the quitter.   He took a very good fight to the suspect, with good hard grips, especially for his head size.  Rather it was equipment or a real person he would give one violent shake as soon as he bit.  His whole body would just torque really hard then he would settle his grip.  He would counter under stress, especially if the suspect would put up a good fight.  And he made this weird noise on the real bite and his rear would shake from his tail wagging.  His first street bite was on a fleeing suspect, high on the inner thigh, just below the groin area.  I had lost sight of him after I sent him to apprehend.  When I finally got to him, that was the first time I had heard the sound.  I never heard it when he was on equipment.  None of the other dogs I watched bite made the same noise.  It had a sound similar to a little puppy fighting another puppy. 

I worked with him about two years.  It was not suppose to be that long, but budget cuts at the time, prevented the new handler who would work with the dog from coming over to the unit.  I have no complaints, he was good dog.  Even after he retired, I would sometimes go by the handler’s house and load Beny to ride around at night with my other dog and I was also able to care for him when the family went on vacation.  There’s just something about being around an old dog.  I guess Tom T. Hall got it right,  The vet estimated his age to be around 14 at his passing.

10-95 is police code for suspect in custody.  It was only fitting to put that on his marker.

Link to a newpaper article.

https://www.gwinnettdailypost.com/archive/great-dog-laid-to-rest-police-remember-k--as/article_45a4a02f-41d1-5df4-bffb-49d31c185cf4.html

 

Pragre, you don't believe that being civil is based on genetics?

what Duke is saying...that a civil dog** does not need to be trained to bite***...the trigger for the civil dog is the human.....the dog is acting on genetics.

You are saying that a dog needs to be **trained to bite **without being triggered by equipment.

A civil dog does not need to be trained** to bite***, but trained **when** to bite...no equipment needed to encourage that dog to bite and they don't need to be slapped in the face to get them to want to bite.

I have a video of dog of mine that I suspected is civil, but I have never done any foundation work with him, so no previous experience with burlap or sleeves or decoys cracking whips and jumping around.
I had him tested by a guy in a suit... The scenario was the guy standing behind some thickets and I drove to the location a few hundred feet from where the guy was, took my dog out of the crate and walked along the edge of woods,  when the guy comes out of the thicket, calmly walks up and starts mouthing off....my dog lit into him without command and fought the guy.
Now, never having experience biting before, and the guy walking over the dog and actually kneeing him in the solar plexes, my dog did get knocked off the bite....no big deal, he came up imediately and bit and continued to fight.
For a completely untutored dog, with zero experience in bite work, it as very plain to see that without a suit for protection, this guy would have been injured and my tha dog is civil gentically....he was not trained nor conditioned to bite. The trigger for him to bite was the guy's attitude and showing up blocking us.

PS, in the video; I do have the mentor of the decoy's holding a 20 foot lead from behind for a safety because of the possibility that I may not be able to hold my dog is things went sideways.
At one point, my dog saw the guy behind us, saw him as a threat and went after him...I got him under control, but it could have been a true test if THAT man had been wearing protection...

( For those who remember the pictures I posted of the female with blood all over her from an intruder she took on, saving her owner...the dog I just described is her littermate!)

I think your post gives evidence to what a lot of us are saying. I think Prager's approach might has some utility for dogs that are not genetically civil with the approach imprinting man orientation over equipment orientation, but that, IMO is learning not genetics and supports again that the stronger dogs are genetically civil.

I must say, this has all been very educational.

apple, you cannot train a Subaru to be a ferrari

you can make a subaru look like a ferrari, but in the end, when you take it to the track, it will still be a subaru

Duke dogs are not cars.

Duke, the way I read his post, apple is in agreement.

exelent observation Prager 

@ joan, I see that, just saying 

Duke I have actually given consideration to your post:"the poor genetics is that the NEED trigger(sleeve/suit) to bite, where the correct dogs will not"

 

Here is my answer to it. 

1/ we are not talking about dogs with poor genetics here but we are talking about the training system. But even though. if the dog would not have training-induced fabric fetish he would not look for fabric when stressed. Right? Any dog at a certain level of stress will revert to what he learned first in protection training- which in this case is biting fabric.  

2/  thus it follows - "term poor genetic" is a relative term/ where do you draw the line. Are you actually proposing that it is expedient to teach the dogs to do the wrong thing - to target ( not bite bite but to target) fabric of the equipment so that we can see if the dog despite such incorrect training, will do the right thing on his own because genetic overpower this ridiculous sportism training? 

3/Would not it be more expedient to stop being apologetic for the shortcoming of sportism where the dog taught to TARGET  an equipment and teach it to TARGET  a man instead? Would not that make more sense? I do not know as for you but it makes more sense to me.