Those who know Czech - Page 8

Duke, my thinking exactly.....there are many variables and though I think genetics is the strongest, all of the things you mentioned have to be factored in.

Duke:Then when we come to things like shallow sockets, I think this is a genetic issue, as it is the way the bone is shaped to begin with.

There is no bone to begin with, only cartilage! Look at this one day old, NORMAL, puppy....

As the puppy grows, the formation of the bony structures that will become the hip joint is not programmed by genes.

Instead, the forces on the joint stimulate the deposition of bone in the right places to form an articulating ball and socket joint.

As long as the head of the femur stays seated where it belongs in the developing hip socket, the hip joint should form perfectly.

This seems truly magical, but there's a catch. If, for some reason, the head of the femur is not tightly held in the hip socket, development will go awry.

What results is "developmental hip dysplasia"; a malformed hip socket. In dogs, this is canine hip dysplasia. ​

Wayne Riser, who studied hip dysplasia in dogs for many years and was also the founder and first director of the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, explained it this way (1975):

"In all mammalian embryos, the hip is laid down as a single unit from mesenchymal tissue, and it develops normally as long as the components are left in full congruity.

The hip is normal at some time in the development of the mammal, and abnormal development occurs only when stresses pull the components apart.

In the dog, the hip is normal at birth. Intrauterine stresses are not sufficient to produce incongruity of the hip.

The first time such forces are great enough is when the pup begins to take its position to nurse. ​Observations of the disease in man, dog, and a number of other mammals for many years have culminated in the conviction that the bony changes of hip dysplasia, regardless of species, occur because the soft tissues do not have sufficient strength to maintain congruity between the articular surfaces of the femoral head and the acetabulum."

Riser is saying here that muscles, ligaments, and tendons ("soft tissues") normally keep the head of the femur properly seated in the developing socket. But if there are abnormal forces on the joint, the soft tissues might be inadequate to stabilize the joint, and malformation of the socket - hip dysplasia - will occur

joanro, are you saying that all dogs are born with normal, sound hips, and all dysplasia is the result of external factors, then?

It's not that simple. There are CLEAR, very CLEAR producers that passed on bad hips. It's a combination of genetics and environment and sometimes it's just pure genetics. If it was that simple we would have solved the riddle long ago.

Hexe, I did not say that, that comes from researchers.

Bf, nobody said genetics don't play roll. Look at the breeds without hd, like the grey hound and even the Anatolian Shepherd ( not the show lines of the breeds, but the ones used for breed purpose). Then look at the breeds that have nearly 100% hd.....look at the common denominator of structure, from the loose fat skin to big huge feet, large bone and sloppy ligaments.

Read what is in my above post...it's selecting for sound structure ( tight skin, tight small feet, not over done in bone and head size, etc) and the first eight weeks are the most critical in formation of normal bone in hip joints...from birth onward.

 

 https://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/how-do-hips-become-dysplastic

Snip:

"...The first time such forces are great enough is when the pup begins to take its position to nurse. ​Observations of the disease in man, dog, and a number of other mammals for many years have culminated in the conviction that the bony changes of hip dysplasia, regardless of species, occur because the soft tissues do not have sufficient strength to maintain congruity between the articular surfaces of the femoral head and the acetabulum."

 

Bf: It's not that simple. There are CLEAR, very CLEAR producers that passed on bad hips. It's a combination of genetics and environment and sometimes it's just pure genetics. If it was that simple we would have solved the riddle long ago.

Let me ask you this; these CLEAR, very CLEAR producers that passed on bad hips, who raised the litters all these bad hips came from? Was it the same breeder?

If they all come fom one litter then I refer you to my above post.

People never take into consideration how a litter from birth to eight weeks is raised bor how they are fed up till going home. If the same bitch or stud dog is in the pedigree of a pup or litter with bad hips, that's who gets blamed...when in reality it could be the breeder who whelped/ raised the litter.

But also, how sloppy is the dog or bitch producing bad hips?

People here in the south always inquire about gsd in terms of " Big Bone" ! As though big bone is a breed ! More is better and the bigger heavier and sloppier the dog ( supposedly ' impressive'!), the less sound it will be. And people tend to want big fat " rolly poly" puppies, free fed from the time they are three weeks old and still nursing...over fed, grown too fast for the joints to support the huge body while the bone is replacing the cartilage.

A good example is look at the commercially produced broiler chickens...they can't stand on cartliginous skeleton because the body is too huge, and the legs are deformed and bent and hips dysplastic.

I've butchered some of them that were allowed to live past butcher age of nine weeks and they could not stand nor walk. the joints were deformed as were the long bones....fed them to my dogs.

 

@ hexe. Joanro is building her HD = non genetic cause on the blog of this Dr Jeannie ( Jeannette) Thomason who says that "With the incredible accumulation of data spanning over 50 years now, the consensus is Finally emerging that the causes of canine hip dysplasia are only mostly environmental and very little to do with genetics." Dr Jeannie is an Animal Naturopath and Holistic doctor(?) which ad hog rejects modern scientific systems of medicine. As far as I can tell her writing is all theorizing without quotation of any scientific work as far as I can say. I have heard this theory from 1990ies mostly promoted by naturopathic "experts" just like this one. I personally know of breeders who subscribe to this "environmental HD" theory and they ended up breeding tons of dysplastic dogs. IMO it is atrocious and to the dogs incredibly damaging wishful thinking. I am getting involved with what Jaonro says not because I would want her to stop expressing her opinions. I am far from it, but I am discussing this because I believe that such direction of thinking if accepted by unsuspected ones, is harmful to the effort of curbing HD.

Dr Jeannie statements like this one: "It has been found and is common knowledge, that one can mate two parents with OFA rated excellent hips and have offspring that are dysplastic; or mate two dysplastic parents and get pups with normal to excellent hips. How is this possible?" Indicates to me her total lack of understanding of basic genetic laws or her intentional deception of people interested in this topic.  Pick one up.

 The statement is so ignorant that I would not even know where to start to debunk it. 

 Here's this post about hip dysplasia, by Dr Jeannie, Animal Naturopath,

https://thewholedog.com/canine-hip-dysplasia-things-to-ponder/

Another question she posts in her blog:

"Did Hip and Elbow Dysplasia exist before 1935?  If so, was it common?"

 Here Dr. Jeannie is implying that HD did not exist as much before 1935. The problem is that she sees correlation  where we really have only coincidence. Perhaps bast this was addressed by Fred Lanting in Chapter 2 of his exhaustive book on HD.    

 Fred Lanting): "The fact is that HD was diagnosed in dogs  first time somewherein 1920 and 1930 but very little attention was initially paid to it by either veterinary profession or the dog fancy. Despite claims by some that:'We didn't have this in the old days and thus HD must have been environmentally caused  (chiefly by unnatural diet), the diorder has been around for as long as the species has. Scientific work published and expanded up on , greater awarness, and more defective dogs being allowved to breed are the major reason for the apparent increase in incidence. In those "old days" in most places, dogs were tolerated only if they had a useful function such as hunting or herding  - other words, helping to put food on a table. 

 

Those that did the best jobs were sought after for breeding and thus a mild form or immitation of natural selection formed many a breed. The best shepherds ' dogs, for example, were those that not only did the best work of herding without hurting but also could trot and gallop all day, lifelong.  Naturally, the dogs that passed the most "bad" genes for HDdid not measure up for work standards and therefore were not as desirable to the competitive owners of flock....."

 from Fred Lantig's book: Canine hip dysplasia and other orthopedic disorders.   

My personal opinion is that nothing in the body - good or bad is not going to happen if genes (good or bad) are not there to facilitate it. In the case of HD environmental conditions will trigger these genes to do either generate HD or not. How much the genes are influenced by such environmental conditions is influenced by genetic resilience to these environmental factors. But the genes must be there to facilitate such condition or the lack thereof and it is up to the breeder to produce dogs with the high resilience genes which create HD. Ideally we want provide for our dog's the most natural environment which is environment which does not readily trip the genes to produce HD. On the other hand if the genes are really bad they can be in a dog living in perfectly correct environment and still will produce HD. However genes are necessary condition to produce good or bad hips. For example, no environmental condition can make a dog grow wings because the genetic structure for wings is not present in dogs.

Today I had the time to follow the link 

https://d-nb.info/989629325/34

Heritage found.

It's very informative, and Distl's research I talked about is part of it ( and it's written in English ).

Everybody interested in HD should read it.

Prager, you are not being truthful.
What I have posted rubs you the wrong way...best if you stop twisting what I have said. I never said genetics don't play a roll...another of your distortions of truth about what I posted.
You obviously can't accept that the breeder who raises a litter from the time of birth has anything to do with pups developing hd...much easier for you to blame all on genetics and the buyer of the pups. Truth is, the first eight weeks of a pup's life are critical in development of healthy hips.

No one is ' unsuspecting' who reads what post since I use links, so they can decide for themselves. Why are you addressing hexe as to your motive for distorting what I have posted? She is not my boss.

As for no science, you call lanting a reliable source? Really? And you give anticdotal stories, unsubstantiated about breeders using exclusively environmental theory causing hd, producing all hd...so what!! That does not give detail of what the breeding stock structure was, how the pups were fed and raised nor even what breed of dog ! It's meaningless drivel. I call bs on your " proof".

( This is not your forum, so I am now allowed to push back, ;-))

 

Wayne Riser, who studied hip dysplasia in dogs for many years and was also the founder and first director of the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, explained it this way (1975):

"In all mammalian embryos, the hip is laid down as a single unit from mesenchymal tissue, and it develops normally as long as the components are left in full congruity.

The hip is normal at some time in the development of the mammal, and abnormal development occurs only when stresses pull the components apart.

In the dog, the hip is normal at birth. Intrauterine stresses are not sufficient to produce incongruity of the hip.
The first time such forces are great enough is when the pup begins to take its position to nurse. ​Observations of the disease in man, dog, and a number of other mammals for many years have culminated in the conviction that the bony changes of hip dysplasia, regardless of species, occur because the soft tissues do not have sufficient strength to maintain congruity between the articular surfaces of the femoral head and the acetabulum."
Riser is saying here that muscles, ligaments, and tendons ("soft tissues") normally keep the head of the femur properly seated in the developing socket. But if there are abnormal forces on the joint, the soft tissues might be inadequate to stabilize the joint, and malformation of the socket - hip dysplasia - will occur