Would you breed a blue mal? - Page 7

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Centurian,
Going back to the OP, I don't think they have commented other than the initial question and if you have to ask the question on a discussion forum, I doubt you are qualified to know or have access to great breeding stock. I see breeding of working GSDs as being a much more flawed endeavor than breeders of non FCI Mal X's from KNPV lines. As I said, I think the Dutch could a better job of developing true family bloodlines that would increase the likelihood and predictability of what their breedings produce. I have seen some very nice Dutch dogs, but they are way too small to be police dogs. That is where the inconsistency and lack of true family bloodlines comes in. Certainly there are substantial Dutch Mal X's like the one in the video I posted that almost knocked the decoy out. That dog weighs 95 pounds. But it is not uncommon to see males from similar breedings that are 50-55 pounds. The other issue has to do with market demand and police and military not wanting the old style police dogs, but more prey based, super social dogs, so that is increasingly what is being bred. Also, the Dutch culture is unique in that many trainers get a pup or dog and train it to a PH1 and sell it as a potential police dog and then get another. They are not looking for a point dog or the podium.
The Germans have failed by allowing what was initially a breed worthiness test become a sport industry that has evolved into a horrible way to select for police dogs. I realize there are other kinds of work, but for me, the gold standard is a very good police dog. Schutzhund/IPO/IGP has devolved into nothing but an obedience sport that is more an evaluation of a dog's training than it genetics. And to add insult to injury, many of the traits selected for in a top IGP dog are counter to traits that make a top police dog.

Although I rarely post on forums such as this one,I felt I wanted to add my two cents.
I have handled police dogs here in Canada for 10 years (2 GSD) and I have also done some FR and some IPO. Apple I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph of your last post. Another aspect to consider is the fact that certain countries don't have the ''attachment'' to the dog they are training and would rather move on with another if the dog doesn't have the adequate qualities for the job. Also as you have mentioned IPO,now IGP is not a breed worthiness test or a test to determine aptitudes for a police selection process. People will always make up excuses for the breed and for the sport.Bottom line is both have changed and we should move on and accept both for what they are and not pretend what they are not.


Mike Di Rago

Mike, AMEN!

Apple ..... I asked a question rhetorically to go on to further conversation . Apple , I am a little surprised at your post : ' I doubt you are qualified to know or have access to great breeding stock. ' I should have added but I did not want to get personal to the OP : If you knew what you were doing , what you needed to know about the Malinois before you got the dog or decided to breed it , you would never ever have posted a question like that on the PDB. And I am not ingending to be condescending , but the fact of the matter that is what needs to be in the mind of someone , at the very outset beforehand , and who that wants to breed , and never mind breeding a blue malinios. Many times ... and I truthfully mean many times someone has cometo me to show me their GS if they knew me . And some have had nice GSs some have not by my standards.They knew nothing about the GS and they knew noting about mating , breeding and weaning, and all of a sudden they want to think of themselves as breeders. I never critsized them but the first comment I stated to them is : " let me help you and teach you what you need to know'. Last month someone came to me to teach her and to help her train her dog for show , so I did. Her dog placed 2nd in the Regional Show. I went to a show , and the fellow handling a GS , who should go VA asked me for my opinion becauxse someone told him to se me about the dog andf ask me what I thought. . I gladly told him .During the show the dog did not get the placement he should have . His handler, who was well experienced in showing , taught the dog and he had gone in many International shows. I did not critisze that handler . I pulled him aside and explained why the judge placed the dog where he did , and what was not correct for this dog in the show training - I didn't even know these peolple beforehand. Apple my inytention is not to berate people or make them feel less but often people come to me because , maybe , just maybe someone has told them that I might have a little experience.

Apple , perhaps you do not know my qualifications , that is ok ..., and I leave that be , as I have no need for any recognition . Apple you are wrong about my qualifications and my access to breeding stock . Not only access to the best of the best SL and WL GSs , some of my dogs SL and WL Gs were not so shabby either , and that is why I have their semen banked. Apple I do not know if I ever wrote to you my qualifications , some people on the PDB I have disclosed them to in PMs . But if I did not to you , then I think that is very unfair to make that comment not knowing me personally and without having all the facts or asked me via a PM .

Mals , I do not have the world's best in connections regarding Mals, but some of my friends do and I am sure if I asked them to make an introduction there would be no problem . My breed even though I have had a Mal , is the German Shepherd Dog who I have had since I was 10 years old . A good part of my life as been committed academically and on field with them to train and to breed them . So I do not understand why you made that belittling comment , for you could have easily asked me. I woud have had no problem telling you in a PM . Also I think the points in my posts that I made are reasonable that any serious , conscientious breeder would also be thinking , believe me .

Apple also consider this too ... some threads on the PDB appear because there are lurkers and people that want to stir the pot sort to speak as well as wanting to bait the PDB members... I do not know for sure if this was one of those threads , but there have been many on this forum site !

Oh boy, Cent, apple was NOT speaking about you, he was merely telling YOU about the OP.

Then I was mistaken Hired becaue I had asked a rhertorical question and that is what I thought Apple was refering to . ..If that be the case , thsnk you for pointing that out and I am sorry about the confusion. But I want to revisit a thought that I had preciously wrote about . The black/ red breedings as this thread is about color and breeding and no one has commented about that post. My points about color being important and amny other aspects also have to be considered . So I wrote 25-30 years ago show lines had great working capability , I had show lines that were police work capable. So if black/ reds back then could work reasonably well , and if many of the black red / black red breedings were Homozygous breedings [ meaing the sire and dam were carrying the Dominance for the black /red ] , then thier working traits should have logistically passed to the progeny , yes ? So ... what happened to the work ethic in the black show line such that they can't fight thier way out of a wet paper bag now and they have lost those traits needed to work ? So I am asking : isn't this interesting that the prevelence of ther black/red color is also associated with the loss of working traits. Someone wrote , that to have done away with undesirable traits that certain colors were not used in the breeding .. Perhaps , and I put this out for eveyone to think about , perhaps there is more to color than we may appreciate in breeding. Any comments on this ??

Sure Cent and I answered this a couple of pages a go. I agree that 30 years a go, some show lines could do police work. When you breed 2 dogs, maybe 2 of the best dogs, not all puppies will turn out the same.
Some will be weak tempered and some will be stronger, still the same colors though.
Simply select the weak tempered ones to breed that will further produce more weak dogs and you continue until you have today's show dogs, all the same color.
You could this with any color, black, sable, etc. When breeders concern themselves with looks instead of temperament and working ability, this is what happens.

Hired dog , absolutely ! and a nice comment . The over , and I mean the extreme over , intensive line breeding ignored the intrinsic genetic traits more for the extrinsic graits ...

Yes, I was referring to the OP, not Centurian. Not sure how you read it the way you did. Regarding color, color has little to do with character except by accident. Prejudice against sables by SV show judges (despite the breed starting out as a wolf grey) goes back a long way. The Martin brothers and their cohorts mistakenly rejected sables because they thought they were of a different type were biased toward the bright reds, which they happened to breed themselves. They contributed to the sables being discarded in the show lines. Herman and Walter Martin excessively concentrated on the bloodline of Canto vd Wienerau which brought in hemophilia and weaker characters, even though Wienerau Kennels always denied the source of hemophilia. Uran and much of his line were not tough dogs either. The so-called courage testing at the Sieger show is circus work and proves very little. Fear is a highly heritable trait and the concentration on Canto/Uran altered the breed compared to the working side. IGP is creating a similar problem and police departments need knowledgeable people to breed the best police dogs, but that rarely happens and valuable genetics for work are lost again, while genetics for sport are promoted. I can think of the Royal Mounted Canadian Police and the Slovak National Police having breeding programs and that is about it. Same is true with the Dutch Mal X's. The best dogs go to the police and generally are not bred. I'm guessing that in the future, there will not be police dogs due to technology/AI.