Inappropriate Agression , but is this a fear biter? - Page 15

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Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 May 2018 - 18:05

Val you misunderstand me. What I am saying is that in a case where I knew the inappropriate aggression had been triggered by owner-inadequacy (as distinct from the dog in the video, where we are all guessing / trying to reprise history from what we see in 7 minutes worth of body language), the aggression was just as marked, just as random, just as unnecessary, as it could have been with a dog with the sort of specifically bred genetic traits you are always talking about, that was 'going wrong'. And the dilemma, in the end, was the same. 

This dog was S/L, whatever genetic shake of the dice was in his physical and mental make-up, and he would not have become the menace that he did if he had been raised and trained by owners who a) really knew what they should do & b) had actually done it (rather than paying lip service only to it) while raising the dog and responsible for it. He might have become what is known as a 'hard dog', if his genetic capabilities had been foremost, but that alone would not have made him so inappropriately aggressive.

Of course you are right, that if someone who knows what they are about can take over such a dog while still young it need not result in a problem.  But if you are faced suddenly with a vicious adult dog, you have to decide whether you will work with it to rehabilitate it / if it is possible to do so; or decide straightaway not to try.  That is just as much about the skill and experience and confidence of the new owner (or other handler taking on assessing the dog) as it is about the dog itself. I'm not sure anyone here has completely explained how it is that some people can read the clues and some people can't. Guess it is down to 'dog sense' ?

Not that anybody should be breeding to produce dogs that definitely will be a menace in the wrong hands, anyway.  Directability of the power to be a serious working (biting) dog should never be substituted by random unpredictability. I know you say you would not want that either, but you do seem to be arguing against yourself sometimes when talking about the expression of those strong traits.


by duke1965 on 05 May 2018 - 18:05

dog doesnot seem to have issues with owner who holds the line, screams at the trainer and as he recognizes his bluff dont work his insecurity grows, tries to walk away from conflict several times.

if the dog is a one men dog living as pet, lock him up before visiters come, problem solved

if the dog is fear biter, but safe with owner, lock him up before visiters come, problem solved

if the dog is not safe with his own people that he should feel safe with, depending on level of problem, rehome or else.

my opinion, insecure, no issues with people he feels comfortable with,


Jessejones

by Jessejones on 05 May 2018 - 19:05

Going back again historically as an aside...

I remember as a kid in Germany in the 60s and early 70s, in the city I lived in, seeing a lot of German Shepherds with loose leather muzzles on...walking on leash with owners. It was really common.

They were everywhere...in streetcars, busses, subways, restaurants, cafes, beer gardens, department stores...etc. It was normal to use a loose fitting muzzle made of widely spaced leather straps. As I remember them, all GS walked calmly in the inner cities and without pulling back then. Now, how many dogs do you see pulling owners down the street? Too many to count.

Also unlike today where people freak out and think you automactilly have a killer dog or you’ll get verbal flack that you are torturing a dog...even if you resort to a muzzle just for insurance or to reassure other people, many whom are afraid of dogs period..especially in tight quarters like a streetcar.

LOL ...Duke, very pragmatic in your thinking!


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 May 2018 - 19:05

Jesse, how true that is ! My other favourite: people who see a dog in a head-collar, and think that is a muzzle (and jump to the same conclusions).

by Centurian on 05 May 2018 - 19:05

Valk Sentry and guarding off limits property for security is a different category ... and many territorial dogs do not be trained for this. The act of breaking and entering is an implied threat in and of itself . Such as a few of men surrounding or confronting someone is a threat in and of itself by context . With certain contexts comes certain unspoken intentions. Also escaping when they should not be , such as leaving a Correctional Institution, is also fleeing from the law. Valk , you don't fit into that category ... you're fine . Come on Valk , you're making me laugh now :- ) .

Duke - Glad you wrote what you did.. the exact description of managing a dog vs. people that thinking they should , could , would rehab all aggressive dogs. Also, one agrees with you : if he is secure with only people he is with , then the determination that coincides with that is - the dog is unsound.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 05 May 2018 - 19:05

Sorry everyone; I am having SUCH trouble with the editing dashboard / loading editor / switching pages again, you would not believe ! Hence loads of double posts...


by ValK on 05 May 2018 - 19:05

Hundmutter i'm sorry for that. my english isn't something i can be proud of.
if your question is addressed specifically at me "will i take over screwed dog to rehab it" i don't know. never faced such quest.
most likely - no. i don't want to go into long explanation but there are bunch of questions - what type of dog, for what purpose,
what sort of expectations, what capabilities of dog, etc. in most cases more simpler and effort efficient to go with fresh dog than
to work on screwed one, particularly if dog is designated for serious work.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 06 May 2018 - 06:05

Your English is pretty good Val (helluver lot better than my German ! ...or French, LOL)
Yes I guess that is what I was asking you - but I got distracted by your answering post in which you concentrated on knowing nothing about that individual dog I was referencing.

I don't know, either - I should point out that it was not me doing the rehab with this dog; nor was I attempting to rehab for anyone when other dogs bit or tried to bite me, in other examples given. I know trainers who, like Pupier, set out to do this for people, though. And I have seen a variety of their cases while ongoing, and obviously formed some opinion at the time whether I thought I would be able to do anything with each dog. Based on my knowledge of training skills and tools, my own level of experience / competance; and my empathy with dogs generally. (Pleased to say I have never had a dog go 'rogue' on me, either ! Phew !!)

One of the things this whole thred has pointed up was the difference between two commercial approaches to training and rehabbing, by two different men. So far Duke and Centurian have really been the only posters to attempt an answer to the question of how they assess a dog which might be rehabilitated from having become out of control; and yet I am still wondering about EXACTLY what it is that should be looked for, in making the judgement as to whether a dog can be brought back to 'normality', or enough to place it in certain kinds of ownership but not others, or simply euthenised.

by Centurian on 06 May 2018 - 16:05

Hund What to look for ..... exactly ....
Is the understanding of the temperament and that behavior is the expression of that genetic make up and environmental / learned input. . [ put aside for now aside the new scientific information that has come out that people can actually influence their cell's genetic expression ] . But genetics are fixed and unalterable in a dog. One has to know what makes temperament . For example when you blink your eyes at a coming hand , that is a preprogrammed automatic biological predetermined genetic response/behavior. This will never able to be changed by behavior modification , maybe by Curare ,if someone injects that into your central nervous system , but not by reconditioning , rehabilitating you . That is what we ask is the specific behavior elicited by the environmental stimuli normal for that specific context/circumstance . Also we ask not only what are the triggers for that behavior but also the mental . emotional state the underlies that behavior. We have to know and determine what percent of that behavior is contributed by genetics or environment. Hund I think you understand this , but realize I write also for novices too.

Aggression comes about because there is a problem that exists emotionally. I Look at : what exactly triggered this aggressive behavior. What is the context /situation . What is the temperament of this dog. What is the behavior quantitatively and qualitatively.What is the emotional state / or the arousal state of this dog . Is the behavioral response normal or not for that context . Is the aggression normal or not.

There are many features that I see , and all of them at once. I look at he dog as well as exactly what the is doing and how he is doing it. What do I see all at once : the eyes of the dog. To illustrate if you ever see my dogs in intense bite work , their eyes are wide open even in the act of biting - so what --- this shows courage , confidence and the comfortable feeling of the dog in what it is doing. I look at the overall composure of the dog- is it extraordinarily tenses , rigid , tightened muscles as opposed to strong relaxed , comfortable in it's contracted muscles . rigidness is seen often with the hackles up , both indications of stress in the dog. Head shaking while biting is an indication of a kill instinct. The ears - in bite work with my dogs whether threatened , or in the bite the ears are up and forward - indication confidence and comfort in the engagement. The verbal utterances , they also tell me what the dog is feeling - they can reveal stress, frustration , fear / concern. Even the behavior /response itself , is there an exaggerated response to a specific stimuli. Does the dog emotionally reset after the stimulus has been removed , that is the recovery time for this dog to attain a normal , comfortable state. There are othere factors that I observe but end listing here.

The environment and the stimuli the dog experiences , that speaks for itself .. But I just write , that in that 1st video there was nothing , absolutely nothing that should have made the dog that uncomfortable that he felt that he had to solve a problem . And to solve a problem by the solution of biting !! I frequently preach : a dog has to bite for the right reason and in the right frame of mind and emotional state.... !!

Sometimes it is crystal clear what the genetics of the dog is and what the environmental input is . Other times understanding all this can be very very difficult even for experienced people . What becomes helpful at times is knowing the history of the dog too.

And more that I write  the bottom line is : this if the problem is [ the 1st video I refer to ] genetic in this dog , you can only manage this dog , you will never ever reliably predictably change that dog. In that 1st video the only lesson that dog has understood is this : I cannot bite a person while I have this muzzle on, no more ,no less . The underyling cause /reason of him wanting to bite the man was never addressed.  He cared less about the muzzle .. we see no sign of him trying to get it off , such as head shaking and pawing at it. So the aggression has nothing to do about a muzzle. The aggression had all to do with the man. And why should that dog have been uncomfortable with that man ? Why such intense aggression ? What was the dog thinking and feeling? Was it appropriate behavior   or not in that specific situation ? How long did it take for the dog to understand that the man was non threatening and meant no harm ?[ the never did learn this , did he? Even having gone back to the owner the dog went back to the man to give aggression  another try ] . So is  there a large genetic component to this , or not ? This I will tell you : anytime we rehabilitate a dog ,for example  , dog to dog aggression : if you do not address exactly that trigger[s] that create that specific arousal state, emotional state in the dog that elicits that specific aggressive behavior , that dog will not change it's thoughts , feelings and what makes him aggress. He will continually aggress to other dogs. A muzzle does not address the underlying cause of the dog wanting to agress an non threatening human - it prevents it. Genetic based problems , they are hard wired into the dog's neurological system , brain and nerves and that re conditioning will never address , re hard wire , those feelings and those autonomic emotional/arousal states. I look at : what is going on in this dog's MIND !! What is the PURPOSE and MOTIVATION of this dog.

Hund, I hope this gives to you and others a little more insight to your question      Remember : rehbilitating is making the dog what is was or what it could be. Managing a dog is accepting ithe dog genetically for what it is and undertaking the reponsibility to handle the dog as needed. A very very experienced person ,as Duke , points out can and will have the common sense and know how to live with this dog. I never said the dog had to be put down . If you owned a car dealership , maybe this is the kind of dog you that want protecting your inventory.


by duke1965 on 06 May 2018 - 21:05

Ill keep it short, people need to realize that not everything can be created or corrected by training,not everything can be "fixed " so sometimes its better to accept things the way they are






 


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