You want to buy a pup because you want to excel in IPO, agility, show, or something else? - Page 1

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susie

by susie on 30 March 2017 - 19:03

I know for most of you it´s old news, but maybe some "newcomers" are reading this post...

The working ability of dogs is genetic, that said the chance to buy a good working prospect is way higher in case you buy out of tested/titled parents ( in the sport you want to become part of ).

It´s naive to believe a puppy will be able to excel only because some ancestors in the 2. or 3. generation were able to excel.
It´s naive to believe a breeder will breed "working dogs" although he/she doesn´t train and title his/her own stock.
And it´s naive to believe a puppy will become the next VA dog only because a grandfather was a VA dog...

You want to do IPO? Go with a breeder training and titling his dogs in IPO.
You want to do agility? Go with a breeder training and titling in agility.
You want to show your dog? Go with a breeder showing his/her dogs.

Try to buy locally, try to see the pups by yourself, don´t believe in sales pitches, ask for proof...

Even out of prooven ancestors there is no "guarantee" for working ability, conformation, and temperament, but the chance to get the dog you will increase a lot - don´t believe anything, ask, ask, ask - and in the best case

WATCH BY YOURSELF ( puppies, dam, in the best case sire, siblings ...)


by hexe on 31 March 2017 - 06:03

Sound advice from an experienced source.

by Gustav on 31 March 2017 - 09:03

Susie, I don't disagree with your post at all.......but since you specified this is directed to newbies and you stipulated excellence in participating, I think that you should make the distinction that titles in SL will not most times acess excellence in IPO, although parents titled.
I have seen countless times at clubs and on forums, folks that come to IPO clubs with SL pups from titled parents being very disappointed as their journey progresses.
I am NOT picking on SL, but stating a reality especially for newbies that want to achieve excellence ( as you specified) in IPO because they see the titles on the parents and naively think all titles are equal. This happens a lot because if you are newby and you have heard that there are good dogs in all lines, and the colors they like have titles.....than they come to club secure in the knowledge their " titled" pup can excel in IPO.
I just think we have to be honest ( at least as it plays out in America) for newbies, just like there are more successful dogs in IPO clubs in America from good genetics, titled and untitled, than from titled pups from SL. That's the reality here in states, it doesn't disavow your post, Susie...but I think the distinctions for newbies should be pointed out to avoid heartbreak. Everybody doesn't realize the distinctions in the breed unless we spell it out and not glide over it.


BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 31 March 2017 - 09:03

 


Good post Susie.

I also went to say to all thet pedigree experts who studied all that famous fancy bloodlines from the past
it doesn,t quarentee you will get the jackpot its all about what actual stud /female dogs individual inherited ..........not 4 or 6 dog back in a pedigree.


When breeding was so easy why don,t we have 100,s of yoshies, Tyson,s Eliots, Agent,s etc etc around the world today with that
same quality.????


In a litter all the pups will not have the same quality there a a few exellent and also some not so good.

 

And we all know good trainers can  make stars from not the best dogs, and crap trainers can destroy the best dogs.

 


by vk4gsd on 31 March 2017 - 10:03

A dog has to have an owner that has the contacts, networks, skill, club, team, decoy and lots of time and money to campaign and promote the dog in order for it to get famous.

There are prolly thousands of potential yoschi, elliot, agent...etc out there.

I have been reading the profiles of some successful handlers over the years. These are not your average plumber and electrician by day kind of guys that spend a few hours every week at the local IPO club.

That right there is what is killing IPO ie the outrageous overheads, infrastructure, logistics, personal time and money involved to do anything above local club level.

No matter what the quality of the dog or trainer if you don't got a world class training AND trial decoy + world class TD how far you think your going to get with a great dog?

Just something else newbys might want to know.

 

That's why other dog sports are growing eg agility (I can't think of a high growth bite sport)  while IPO is withering. Also why my local show in the middle if nowhere gets hundreds if conformation entries every year and growing  with 1000+ paying spectators and why IPO trials are full of empty seats and empty parking lots in any empty stadium.

 

In contrast agility, conformation, obedience, tracking pour money into my town and anyone who wants to can be the best, and reach their own and the dog's potential.


susie

by susie on 31 March 2017 - 18:03

All of you are right...

Gustav, it´s easier to find a "good" working prospect out of an x - generation "active working dog pedigree" than out of locally titled IPO1 showline dogs. There are still very good showline dogs, but you need to know where to look at...
The huge majority of people doesn´t want to go to the nationals, but wants to own a good companion, able to work. A lot of trained and titled showlines are able to fulfill this job.

VK, society changes - nowadays people want fast success, and they don´t want to "waist" their time in a club any more. Instead of sports clubs people go to the gym, willing to pay a lot more than they would pay as a member of a club, but they don´t want to care. They don´t want to bake cakes, or spend the weekends at the club - no duties...
Same in the dog world - people want to have fun, and they want to have fast success - and for sure they don´t want to hear that their beloved pet isn´t able to trial...

Year after year I see very promising American bred youngsters on the Siegershow(s), but almost only in the puppy classes, some in the young/youth dog classes - no training necessary, fast success, a trophy for the dog ( although the show handlers hate these dogs - no matter the quality they regularly loose against the trained imports...).

Black, everybody involved in dog sport knows there is no guarantee for success, but for this knowledge you need to train...otherwise you will never know.

After all even over here where any breeding prospect has to be titled ( at least till now ) prior to breeding people aren´t interested in IPO as much as they used to be ( back to society )...it´s an international phenomenon.

Working line / showline doesn´t really matter - I guess more than 99% of all IPO participants never trial nationally or at least regionally - and honestly - they don´t need to.

Some handlers are too lazy,
some don´t have the skills,
most owners only want to entertain their dogs,
a lot of dogs, no matter the line, are not good enough,
and a lot of handlers don´t have access to good helpers / clubs.

All of this is not important - even locally you are able to see differences between the single dogs - as soon as you get involved you are able to distinguish.

It becomes different as soon as you want to become a breeder - at that point a good owner/breeder will ask for quality, no matter the lines.

I really believe in active training / titling breeders - they do show respect for the breed - and they are active members of a club, helping others, being proud of their puppies, using the best offspring for their next breedings. A lot of puppies of a good breeder will stay locally, simply because people are able to see the breeder´s dogs.

For me it´s a win / win situation - for the active breeder and for the active owner.



by Gustav on 31 March 2017 - 19:03

Susie, one of the reasons you don't see those promising youngsters later, is because very few SL dogs are titled in America at club level, regional level and of course national level. Only the elite that send their dogs to Germany get their puppies titled.( Well the overwhelming majority)
Out of approximately a couple hundred clubs( at least a few years ago) in states, except for a few SL clubs founded by SL breeders, the overwhelming majority of clubs in America were founded by former national level competitors. At the least regional competitors.....it is infrequent to see SL dog competing at even club trials for title. This is partial answer to why these promising youngsters aren't seen as adults at US Seiger show.
I get that you believe in titling, it's a requisite in Germany....nothing wrong with that...I feel just as strongly about folks breeding good dogs, which I think I did for many years. We all love this breed !


by Swarnendu on 31 March 2017 - 20:03

When will this discussion move to REAL working dogs? So far it's only sports, and how bad show dogs are...

susie

by susie on 01 April 2017 - 09:04

No reason to stir up the pot, Swarn - did you read the headline?

Gustav, we had this discussion before;
there is no doubt with some knowledge and research potential buyers are able to find good breeders ( and puppies ) who don´t title their dogs, BUT a newcomer won´t be able to find those breeders - way easier to visit a trial ( be it IPO, KNPV, agility, or a show ) and to SEE the quality by yourself in direct competition to others...
Everybody is able to TALK about dogs, and everybody will tell you the same ( good nerves, good drives, good temperament - yadayadayada ) but most are not able to actually proof even the basics...

Besides that, I guess you still train and test your stock, and for that you use your knowledge out of decades of training..........you didn´t wake up one day and made the decision to buy some GSDs and start a breeding program ( and that´s what a lot of people do - buy some dogs and make cash ).

by vk4gsd on 01 April 2017 - 11:04

The thing that keeps breeders in business supplying dogs to the masses is the masses don't need a dog at all for anything so a nothing dog is a good fit.

They don't know the difference and can't tell the difference. As long as the dog isn't enough dog to get out of control then quality doesn't matter.

Obviously health matters, looks matter and a great storyline matters. Pretty much anyone can breed the right dog given such low criteria.

Someone who wants and needs a good dog will know where and how to find it.

 

The excellent dogs people speak of simply are not required for the vast majority of dog buyers in the world.

 

Its the same reason more Honda's get sold than Lamborghini.






 


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