A 100% DDR is a 100% DDR because Mr Sosnovsky says it is .... no corroborating pedigree required - Page 7

Pedigree Database

 

by stormins on 11 March 2019 - 03:03

For those breeders who say that it is a buyers fault because they didnt research enough to catch a selling breeder in a lie, I would ask if they are willing to provide filmed evidence of a tie and DNA to back up the breeding the claim??

Or are you going to invite your clients to your kennels to watch the tie?

No? Then you too expect a buyer to TRUST what you tell them!!

Anybody can tell the registry what they want w/o dna proof and anyone can input whatever they want to backup their claims in pedigree database.

So please tell me again how it's the buyers fault for NOT being present for the breeding and NOT knowing that entries made were false or changed after the fact...

Uh Huh that's what I thought
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 11 March 2019 - 08:03

Well that is true up to a point - but what is stopping buyers from deliberately choosing to only deal with breeders who voluntarily do the things you mention, and show proof ?

OK AKC (& other Registries) may not insist on DNA tests pre Registration, but that is no reason not to preferentially approach breeders who are known to regularly DNA their stock, notwithstanding AKC policy.

There are ads on here showing the dogs tying all the time - nothing says you cannot enter discussions about booking a puppy (as opposed to 'impulse buys' once litters are on the ground), meet the adults, and ASK for such a video to be taken.

As with much else in life, there is a correct and thorough way to go about making a serious dog purchase; which involves getting to know the chosen breeder properly. And then there is the other way, where you carry the risks you have not tried to eliminate.

by stormins on 13 March 2019 - 17:03

Hundmutter

How do you suggest "getting to know" a breeder in Belarus properly?

How would you eliminate the risks?
Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 13 March 2019 - 18:03

If you can't get out there (Belarus, or wherever else) frequently, and you don't have mutual contacts you can trust, why buy from there ?
At the very least you need a common language and some telephone chats, over a period of time. Can't do any of those, IMO don't bother. What is the difference between leaving it all to trust between home and Belarus, and just buying sight unseen off an internet ad from someone in your own country ? (as so many do, and then complain afterwards about). NO single mating or bloodline is worth all the potential hassle. Its just gambling with your money; but its worse because it involves a living, sentient 'product' which can end up suffering for your willingness to take risks.

by stormins on 14 March 2019 - 16:03

but its worse because it involves a living, sentient 'product' which can end up suffering for your willingness to take risks.

 

Hundmutter 

You do not know me and yet you are implying that I would somehow allow my Shepherd to suffer at my hand because I made a mistake in trusting  a breeder to deliver what he promised.

 

 

 

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 March 2019 - 17:03

No, I was generalising. It is always hypothetical until it happens. There are circumstances in which dogs have suffered the results, one way or another, from buyers getting rooked over papers or breedings / real identities, for whatever reason, and to whatever degree. As a warning, for all, of a possibility that should be taken into account before gambling, it applies to anybody reading this thred; its not a pop specifically at you.

by stormins on 14 March 2019 - 18:03

As a matter of fact I had written off Alex, after first looking at his dogs,  Why ? Because it's Belarus  and it is a sketchy country. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that once you wire money over there you will never see it again.

I had writteen him off even though his dogs looked great.  It was only sometime after my trainer who has 40 years experience owning, working, and training Shepherds in the  military and law enforcement, is married to a German, and has been overseas several times bought one from Alex, that I started looking at him again.

 

Sometime after that I started having several chats, video chats and calls  in English with Alex.

 

Alex had produced exactly what he said he would with the  GSD he  sold my trainer. He made no claims that the dog was 100% DDR  (it wasn't)  in fact was very clear and forthcoming about the percentage DDR he was.

 

When my trainer brought his dog to our training field I was amazed at the beauty and structure of the dog. At that time every promise and obligation made by Alex was being made and kept.

 

I researched PDB and other avenues for any honesty and integrity issues.

 

But .... people change, greed takes over and the almighty $ begins to  dictate the integrity of their business.

 

Hundmutter

Please tell me how people would be able to know if you crossed over to the "dark side"?

  Please tell me how they would know if you had been honest in the past that you had changed? 

Is it the buyers fault if they can't read your mind and missed the change?

Is somone taking a gamble when they do business with you because they  base the future off of your past performance?

 

It is always hypothetical until it happens

Hmmmmm  I think you need to re-read what you wrote

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 14 March 2019 - 21:03

@ Stormins: Rather than re-visiting what I wrote, I went back and re-read the thred in its entirety. Although it is obvious from some of the e-mails that some telephone conversations have occurred between you and Alex/DaddyCool, at no point do you clarify that you did all the talking and investigation that you have now claimed.  What you have to remember is that you are writing openly on a public forum, which will be visited by readers who have 'no dog in the fight', probably won't read the earlier parts of a six- or seven-page thred anyway, and will just take away messages they read at random, like that with which you started this page (P7).  You  are not having a private argument with the breeder you claim has misdealt with you.

 

Now if what you say in your LAST post is accurate, I do have more sympathy for you than when it looked as though you may have done few, or none, of those things to get to know, and know about, the breeder of your choice. Nonetheless, I would point out that in terms of doing your 'homework' on a breeder so difficult to access easily (as opposed to someone in the next State, say) you were still somewhat taking that gamble.  You yourself have praised PDB as a source of information and yet you apparently did not use it ?  Alex has been posting pics and ads on PDB for several years (and yes they do ostensibly look as though they might be very nice dogs), - but he has hardly gone unchallenged on some of his claims over that time. There have been voices of dissent; and of course there have been many warnings on PDB, generally, again for years, querying the validity of the range of 'all DDR' claims, from wherever. Increasingly, as the distance in years from the E / W German split increases.

ValK talked about the 'hype' at one point, and s/he's done quite a bit of investigating breeders' claims in looking for the type of dog she remembers and likes. And has pointed out that while not all 'commercial' breeders are crooks, it isn't uncommon for the love of easy money to undermine what may have started out as good breeding practice.

Even when you (any buyer) HAVE done all the 'getting to know you / getting to know all about you' stuff, that is still no reason to take anything said to you at face value without checking it out further & independently. So I stand by what I said above about doing the independent checks on what is recorded. You argued with Susie when she said you could have done some of this, but if things are available online you can use translation services - and if the info IS NOT THERE, that is surely the red flag you should be taking note of ? Without getting into every incidence of the wrong or misleading info you have received, I would for example say if a country is not insisting as part of registering dogs with its national agencies that they DNA test, and you the buyer want a DNA test, done as routine proof, then you don't buy from that country. If hip records are not shown because the dog was extremely young to be X rayed conclusively, you do not consider that you should rely on the result you are given. Again, there is some responsibility on the buyer to make sure they know enough to spot dodgy information, see the warning flags. Before they part with any money. As is true for other pertinent information gleaned along the way, like the banning from the DDR Legends Forum.  This is not 'overlooking one little thing on the paperwork that you ought to have been able to trust the word of the breeder about', this is a string of research it would pay anybody to do - especially in cases where they are thinking of investing quite a bit of money, not just in the price of the dog but in associated shipping etc costs.

To answer your last point directly: yes. If a buyer relies on past good performance, either towards himself or others, to always continue to perform honorably, and does not question whether it is still the case, then it is indeed taking a gamble.

 


by stormins on 15 March 2019 - 05:03

Hundmutter

 

Nice dissertation  , but like a bowl full of spaghetti  you have thrown a bunch of stuff together and mixed it  all up.

 For example When the wrong hip ratings are put into PDB the wrong research comes out.  The banning of Alex from DDR legends was AFTER my purchase....but why let a little thing like a timeline get in the way of a good dissertation .

You, like so many masters of perfection are missing the  whole point.... When you are so busy castigating the messenger for telling their  story ...you are  making it harder for people to even want to provide their story let alone the  DOCUMENTS that were posted on this thread backing  up the claims.  

Why would  you want to shoot the  mesenger bearing the news of the misdeeds of a particular  breeder and by default defend his actions??

Not once have you called Alex out for the false hip ratings, selling dogs with brucelosis and the buyer is supposed to know that your hip ratings are dodgy by osmosis?  Or just Alex's ?

The point you are missing is; HOW is anyone coming after me and so many of the others listed in this thread who had issues going to be able to do this omniscient research you speak of if you and people like you do everything possible to shame a whistleblower to the detriment of any one else who is trying to do this comprehensive research you have done with perfect 20/20 vision looking in the rearview mirror...

But then maybe their is a reason you are doing this....

 

 

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 15 March 2019 - 16:03

My sole reason is to spread the word to all potential buyers that it is not enough to rely on whoever you deal with staying 100% honest, these days. Time was (maybe, maybe not) when we could all say: everyone we trade with for anything will be up front with us and will be so terrified of upsetting anyone (or their gods), or losing their reputation, that they can be totally relied on to deal with us properly and not scam us. Therefore it does not matter if we, from our side of the bargain, do little to protect ourselves. Welcome to the real world. Its less the amount of research than the distances involved; once was, nobody would try to deal internationally in this way if it could be avoided. Now we are so used to international communications and speed of transactions that we fool ourselves into believing everything is 'just next door' and cannot backfire on us.

I hold no brief for Alex - but it seems you would rather ascribe such a non-existent defence to me, rather than ever admit that perhaps you took a risk or two and did not consider the possibility you could be scammed.

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