Pup with broken tail, nervous temperament and not long haired. - Page 2

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by CelticSpirit on 21 February 2017 - 21:02

Hi Susie,

The breeder did not hold her for 2 months for us.
It just so happened that the pup was available when we made contact.
And €1250 plus €750 shipping is pretty much premium price for a BBS in Europe, I'd like to know what you consider a premium price for this breed and what line is worth this price.
I have since had offers from breeders with champion line BBS for around €1000

I have had GSD in the past, I'm not a total newby. I take the dog out 2 to 3 times per day to various environments and use all the usual motivators, treats, toys etc.

The dogs temperament in not what was promised, that's the big issue, along with the broken tail and medium hair instead of long.

susie

by susie on 21 February 2017 - 21:02

Sorry about the wrong assumption ( kept the puppy for you ). Did you ask WHY the pup wasn't sold? 

Otherwise € 1200- € 1400 is pretty common for this breed in my country.

A Berger Blanc Suisse is no German Shepherd Dog, it's a different breed, showing different behavior and temperament.


Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 21 February 2017 - 21:02

I will say that Susie has some valid points. These dogs are not known for their strong nerves. Never have been. You add the age at shipping to a soft and weak temperament in the first place, and you have what we have now. That's a pretty impressionable age and some would even go so far as to call it a "fear period." I have never been a big proponent of "fear periods," in general, but it's *possible* (not saying probable, but possible) that the breeder did think the puppy was ok and the puppy just didn't react well to the shipping and total life change all at once at this impressionable age. This should have been predicted by the breeder, in any case, but I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and say they may not have had the ill intent you think.

Coat is awfully hard to predict and too young to say for sure what it will mature to be. I certainly don't know enough about these things to say what kind of coat it has or will have.

Why not return the dog? Do you think you will ever be happy with her? I think you and she each deserve for you to have what you wanted- she deserves to live with someone that thinks she is what they wanted, and you deserve the dog you thought you were paying for, if you made your impressions clear.

Is returning her not an option?

I also agree with Susie on the "behaviorists." I don't think I've ever met one that seemed to know more than an experienced SchH trainer. Too often, their experience is books and not dogs ;) Try to keep things a little low key for a bit and not "flood" her; also be cautious not to reward fear. Be matter of fact about things and always communicate with her when confronted with stress, so she feels like you're with her, and not that she's got to look out for herself.

by CelticSpirit on 21 February 2017 - 22:02

As for why the pup wasn't sold.

The Breeder said they were going to keep the pup themselves but as she matched what we were looking for (show dog, possible schutzhund, confident, friendly) she would sell her to us.

At my first contact with this breeder they offered a choice between two pups from a different litter for €750 each but I did not like how they looked, short haired and slightly more rounded ears than I would like.

It was only after I told the breeder I didn't want one of these pups for €750 did they offer the long haired for €1250, show dog, with unique lines, none like them in Europe, their words!

by CelticSpirit on 21 February 2017 - 22:02

Hi Jenni,

The pup was 4 months at shipping, 2 months older than the age most dogs would go to their homes.
The trip took 48 hours and was done professionally by a dog transportation company so wouldn't have been too uncomfortable.

I find it hard to believe the pup just suddenly changed its temperament the moment I collected her....is that really plausible? Surely she would have settled by now 3.5 weeks later, but there has been no improvement.

I made my intentions very clear when communicating with the breeder, we wanted a well balanced dog, confident, friendly and with the ability to compete in shows and schutzhund. We were told this pup would be perfect for all of this and a perfect match.

As for returning the pup. It was never mentioned as an option by the breeder and in reality it most likely would not be possible due to the distance and cost of travel between Spain and Ireland, not to mention the inconvenience and the fact my partner in particular has become attached to her as a pet.

As for the behaviourists, I agree that they are not the best but the dogs nervousness was so pronounced that I felt I had to try something.

As it stands, the dog will only be a house pet, not suitable for shows/competitions or breeding due to the very nervous temperament.

by CelticSpirit on 21 February 2017 - 22:02

Hi Sherman,

No certificate is needed other than vaccination stamps in the passport of the animal.
Either way, we did not receive any such certificate of health.
Ireland and Spain are both part of the European Union so this may be why such a cert is not needed.

I've read the breed standards back to front and spent months researching this breed.
Overly shy temperament in Swiss Shepherds is considered a disqualifying fault.
Broken tail is considered a severe fault.

The pup was well past the 'cute little puppy stage' when we got her at 4 months, she was more leaning towards the beginnings of looking like a dog. I didn't take this responsibility with a whim, I know the commitment needed and I'm prepared to follow through, just disappointed that the temperament is not what was promised and the other issues, broken tail etc.

Reliya

by Reliya on 21 February 2017 - 22:02

I bought an unsocialized four month old from an older lady that was unable to do enough with him. After I realized the issue, I waited until he was comfortable with me before I started socializing him with others. Once he was confident and pushy, I gave him to my military friend who will be using him as a hiking buddy and taking him to survival training with her. He'll be seven months old soon.

I also trained a German shepherd dog last year that you could tell was genetically soft. No amount of socialization would help this dog. She would urinate and drop to the ground upon just seeing you. She did this for months. I think her owners eventually sold her.

Jenni78

by Jenni78 on 21 February 2017 - 23:02

Celtic, are you familiar with the different developmental phases of a puppy? 2 DAYS in transit through strange countries with a total stranger at the age of 4 months is MOST DEFINITELY harder on a puppy than being shipped in several hours at the age of 8 weeks. They have a totally different view of the world at 8 wks vs. 16 wks.
It has absolutely nothing to do with being "comfortable" or "too uncomfortable" and everything to do with the change in a dog's temperament between those ages. While it is not something that I would be able to reconcile if it were my puppy (meaning if I was the breeder), it is not impossible that she really DID seem ok to them. You really don't know what all went on those 48 hours when she was in transport.

This info is a little "fluffy" for me (lol) but I think there are some valid points, particularly as they pertain to dealing with a weaker temperamented dog. https://pethelpful.com/dogs/Dog-Behavior-Understanding-Fear-Periods-in-Dogs

http://www.drjensdogblog.com/the-dark-side-of-socialization-fear-periods-and-single-event-learning/

by CelticSpirit on 22 February 2017 - 00:02

Hi Jenni,

thanks for the link I'll give it a look through.

I have heard of 'fear periods' but this seems very subjective and has far too many variables to be in any way accurate or determinate.

The transporter said the pup was nervous from the beginning. This pup cowers behind me in fear for her life if a person walks past, she pulls back with all her strength if I attempt to walk past someone from behind.
If she sees a car or bus it's instant panic mode and she totally freaks out. The vet has seen her twice now and is very kind, offering her treats and she still won't let the vet so much as touch her.

I can understand an adjustment period but this is much more than that. The pup certainly does not have a show dog temperament....imagine an unknown judge trying to touch her, trying to rub his hand over her body to check her, I can not see it happening. We have been very caring and very aware not to push her too much, let her go at her own pace but at this stage it's obvious she is either this way genetically or she was never properly socialised with people. Either way, the pup is not as was promised.

Koots

by Koots on 22 February 2017 - 01:02

Sorry to hear you did not get what you hoped. You keep asserting "as promised", but was there any written promise or guarantee, or just implied? If no written guarantee as to the dog's suitability and temperament to be a show and/or sport dog, then you really have nothing, unfortunately. Hard lesson but hope the pup will be loved nonetheless.





 


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