Mastiff Type Heads in the GSD - Page 9

No only looking at the suspect population would not resolve the question.

A statistically significant project would have to be done which means thousands if not tens of thousands to be tested. It would have to ensure that all the "pieces" of the GSD breed were included - WGSL WGWL KNVP BELGIAN CZECH BRITISH ALSATIANS AMERICAN SHOW AMERCAN WHITE GSDs THE BERGER SWISS & DOGS FROM COUNTRIES W/ a significant "native" population not unduly influenced by the Martin brothers methods of mass exportation. We would also have to id to the researchers other "suspect" populations such as the Russians claiming dominant black not from a fence jumper or the possibility some Belgian or Dutch GSDS may have acquired a few Belgian genes THO if we all come from the same rootstock that particular contamination may be difficult to tease out.

In addition it would have to be an open database w/ each dog identified and matched to his dna profile his pedigree and chip #.

Finally they produced the chart only using maternal or mitochondrial dna. If such a project could be done it would be much more useful if it also looked at paternal dna transmission and finally.a gene or marker which is not sex linked.

This project could be done if a univ donated the testing or grants were written/ received for the testing cost or even crowdfounding or dog registries could add a dollar to the registration cost & direct the money to the research. I' m sure there are plenty of owners, breeders who would gather the required samples from their dogs. I would happily work with a project trying to do statistically signifcant research. My dogs have already contributed to dna research. Remy & Nemo to the U of Minn work on hemangio.Nemo to the work that identified the pituitary dwarf gene and to a project on longevity in dogs. I would also be willing to donate my time for record keeping & database management. This is what breeders did historically to document traits & problems in a breed but now we're all caught up in the it must be dna evidence.

BTW imho I don't particularly care what some researcher thinks is the origin of the breed. I know what it is. Plus I would not choose to own one of those in my estimation deformed unstandard GSDs.

However, I would like to see a project of this kind of scope applied to another area but it would be more expensive because it would require tissue samples post death & necropsy. I am of course referring to DM. We need the answers to these questions:
1. Is gsd dm one disease or two(early onset fast decline less responsive to antioxidant intervention vs late onset slow decline responsive for a time to intervention)
2. Are corgi & boxer diseases labeled as dm the same as gsd dm or are they a different disease or diseases (note they have significant differences in their etiology from classic gsd dm.)
3. Once the above questions have been answered then & only then would you move onto the questions of environmental vs genetic input & the possibility of finding a reliable marker.

To investigate this however would require the harvesting of appropriate spinal & neurological tissue wh/ has a higher cost to collect & ship and more resistance on the owners
part. In addition one or more centers would have to be estab to do the necropsy since dm can only be accurately id after death. This center would have to be scientifically neutral and not receiving any royalties or funding from the sod1 providers nor could any of that group participate in the research.

Note for newer board members you can search the forums and there are many threads about the so called dm test which is really only a test for the sod1 gene. I suggest the above research because 1. the above questions should have been answered first 2. A gsd in the original research group and several since necropsied & diagnosed w dm did not carry the sod1 gene thus disproving Coates hypothesis. Despite that the test has been marketed to the tune of millions of $. 3. In addition a # of dogs with 2 copies of the sod1 gene show no evidence of dm once again disproving the original hypothesis. 4. The test is being marketed to hundreds of breeds who never have had this type of neurological disease in their breed often w stunningly high levels of dogs carrying two copies of the gene. Breeders are encouraged to breed against the sod1 gene even tho there is no scientfic proof it has any actual causation or connection to ANY disease process. Imho this is fraudulent and unnecessarily causes gene pools to be restricted which purebred dogs can ill afford.

Also please note. This is not meant to hijack this thread. If you want to discuss either of my research proposals do a copy & paste & start a new thread. This was meant only as a comment on why only testing the suspect population would not work; what would work imho and what I personally would rather see some time & energy devoted to.

Tig, I'm talking about proving if these dogs have another breed added, not tracing the ancestry to find long-buried genes from way, way back.

And that's a wonderful idea about the DM project!

Pootling around clicking on the URLs listed by Google, I then found a 'magazine style' website, with multiple photos of many dogs. Some were images I recognised from those already pulled out and put up on these threds. They are definitely of different dogs, they include a long-coat and a couple of all-blacks. While I have accepted some photoshopping may have been employed in these promotions, I think it unlikely 'they' could or would do so much. Too much effort for a prankster; and too revealing of eye problems etc as with that puppy shot. JMHO. Interestingly, all down both L/H and R/H of the screen are smaller pictures (again, some of them familiar) with the words "shut down" superimposed. As though the large number of kennels producing this type of dog had over-reached in expectation of demand, and subsequently gone out of business during the past 3 years ? These include for example an individual kennel called "Ming Yang Kennel" with a blurb for a dog that reads: (apologies for quality of translation !) "The public-dominated "supreme" son, it is the perfect body structure, rich bone mass to the people of the United States to convey the visual enjoyment, scared to Heavenly front page, open the new trend of fashion, showing a solemn and majestic, nose wide and broad, clear outline, and ..." - I'll leave you all to draw your own interpretation & conclusions ! But there is also an entry on the main 'body' of the site, the bit that looks as though it might be still operating, where alongside a box dedicated to the "Shuangyashan Songjiang Group" it says: "Vivid, warm congratulations. Canine industry exclusive title 2016 Sheepdog online boutique exhibition ..."

So maybe this is a VR competition, online only ?  (Wouldn't THAT be terrific, if that was all they were doing ?  But does not explain those videos, of very real, massive headed dogs.)

So sorry, Susie, I can no longer access all the links I was looking at before (I WISH I had noted dates and details of litters, then; but at that point I did not realise I might need them), because they have these "shut down" boxed photos superimposed.  But what I have been able to find at least does indicate some 'recent' activity, of sorts - so I am still wondering what is happening to any puppies being produced ???

Thanks, Hundmutter, don´t worry, guess you have seen enough Chinese monstrosities by now...

TIG seems to think the same way I do about the "mastiff genome" in German Shepherd Dogs - glad to realize it´s not only me

There is a current DM research project in the UK - but it is held up by lack of owners coming forward to have their dogs included. There is a new Canine Genome Study working on mapping a first selection of dogs also in the UK, but GSDs are not a breed included in it yet. We have been promised the GSD will be included in the second tranche, but not until 2018.

As I understand it TIG the parameters are very much as you suggest; but I do not know whether the researchers will be offered as wide a selection of 'types' within the breed, to be as much use as you & I would want.

 

I'll put results of both on PDB when I can but we obviously have to wait a while.

@Susie... it was never only you. 😏 I never believed that diagram chart either. What a wild goose chase.

Sunsilver, yes I get it you only want to prove the addition of another breed or breeds but b4 you can prove that you need to know " normal".

There are actually some shortcuts that could be used tho not quite as scientifically rigourous. First is the registries. They are building a bank of dna. Problem however they only test if a and b produced c and they PRESUME a & b were of the breed stated and don' t look further back for fence jumpers. Anyone in dogs for any length of time is well aware of the massive level of pedigree fraud that has existed for decades and dna doesn't really address this because it is the breeder who sends in the dna. Thus it is possible a really was x an unreg dog the breeder likes but he has access to a's papers so he regs the puppies under a's name but provides dna from x.

Another souce could be the databases of all these companies now selling dna tests to the unwary. Problem here is you do not see them releasing breed dna profiles because they view that as proprietary info and don' t want competitors to see that info. Also while they claim to be able to breed id they do NOT tell us what genes or markers they use to determine a gsd is a gsd and not a Belgian or Collie. It seems to be a "trust" me industry I only want to help you & your dog. Classic classic sign of a con. I have yet to see ONE of these joints have their results certified by blind testing. IE I send u the sample w no identifying info or pictures or I send you a blind sample of what is known to me but not them of a F1 cross ( easily available thru the guide dog schools) and see if they get it right. Users of these services should be demanding that kind of proof & confirmation. Just look on the human side of the businesses in this area shut down due to fraud misrepresentation and over reaching. Seems modern man is a trusting fool easily duped. Of course many of the users of these dubious genetic tests and claims are in fact frauds and cons themselves and just use the tests to bolster their appearance of credibility.

When researching the research that developed many of these so called tests you find an appalling lack of statistical significance that would be laughable if not for the fact of how sad and destructive it is to our breeds. Example the 5 dogs mentioned above. And btw for die hard Penn Hip fans look at the small amt of research done b4 they rushed to market. I asked to be sent the original research papers they published. I believe if I remember correctly it was 69 dogs consisting of a # of different breeds ( wh have different "normal" structure) plus the distraction index has been a moving target since day one AND they have yet to establish the open db or done the longitudinal studies they initially promised. At least w ofa for all its limitations you can easily go in and look at production, sibling depth family trends etc. This is the advantage to open databases and we need to demand more of them plus we need to hold firm in demanding rigorous scientific research that holds to and honors the scientific method and is not just a bid to hit the dna test lottery reward of a lifetime sinecure. 

Sorry my bad. My soapbox. I am just so tired of the bad science foisted on us and the gullibility of people.

Speaking of abortions just saw an ad for k9 zoey of Hartmore. ARRGHH (runs screaming from room)

Sorry on smartphone & can't get link to copy .

Re the steroids I am surprised no one else has commented.

I do think it is possible they cause the droopy skin tho that could be shar pai genes also.

Have you ever seen pictures of old body builders who in the day were heavy roid users. When they have to give it up , everything loses its elasticity and the skin sags. They have to wear bras to support their steroid overdeveloped chest muscles. Not a pretty sight.

That's pretty much not how the majority bb's cycling off roids end up, where do you get this info?

Roids are way more common than most people think, its harder to find pro athletes NOT on gear these days not to mention all army of regular guys on prescription roids for a range of health issues, bras frikkin hilarious.

 

Dogs don't lift weights with their face ferkrissakes so excessive skinfolds on their face is somehow like retired body builders post a life of steroid abuse is pretty dam out there.