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by Blitzen on 05 December 2012 - 01:12
Hi Andrew,
I hope all is well with you and yours.
Is this a copy of the xray or the same xray that was submitted to OFA? If so, I think I would seriously consider having it taken again with the dog sedated to the point of relaxation. The positioning of the xray is not the best. The pelvis is not symetrical causing the right hip to appear to be more shallow than it probably is and the left hip to appear deeper than it probably is.. The knees are not visible, so I can't tell if they are rotated medially and that can make a very big difference too. We have been engaged in a rather lengthy discussion here on OFA's accepting poorly positioned films to evaluate hips rather than asking for a re-do. I think this may be the case here. Personally, I would not have sent this xray to OFA, it's just not good enough and I think they should have asked for another. IMO this dog may very well get an OFA fair or good with a better xray.
Having said this, the owner still has to deal with the elbow, so he may not be too keen on doing another hip xray anyway since the bad elbow will eliminate him from breeding, normal hips or not.
I hope it all works out in favor of the buyer and the dog. I doubt he will ever suffer any lameness issues due to the hip conformation. I'm with Kitkat, I don't know why breeders put buyers through hell to get restitution. I couldn't argue with Haut Mansard if he questioned the hip xray and I ask for another or that it be submitted to the SV. Frankly if I bred this dog I would want to see a better hip xray. The elbow is a different story and, without seeing that xray, it would be hard to think it would not be of diagnostic quality; it's pretty hard to mess up an elbow xray.
PS: I missed the elbow xray, I think OFA made the right call on that.
I hope all is well with you and yours.
Is this a copy of the xray or the same xray that was submitted to OFA? If so, I think I would seriously consider having it taken again with the dog sedated to the point of relaxation. The positioning of the xray is not the best. The pelvis is not symetrical causing the right hip to appear to be more shallow than it probably is and the left hip to appear deeper than it probably is.. The knees are not visible, so I can't tell if they are rotated medially and that can make a very big difference too. We have been engaged in a rather lengthy discussion here on OFA's accepting poorly positioned films to evaluate hips rather than asking for a re-do. I think this may be the case here. Personally, I would not have sent this xray to OFA, it's just not good enough and I think they should have asked for another. IMO this dog may very well get an OFA fair or good with a better xray.
Having said this, the owner still has to deal with the elbow, so he may not be too keen on doing another hip xray anyway since the bad elbow will eliminate him from breeding, normal hips or not.
I hope it all works out in favor of the buyer and the dog. I doubt he will ever suffer any lameness issues due to the hip conformation. I'm with Kitkat, I don't know why breeders put buyers through hell to get restitution. I couldn't argue with Haut Mansard if he questioned the hip xray and I ask for another or that it be submitted to the SV. Frankly if I bred this dog I would want to see a better hip xray. The elbow is a different story and, without seeing that xray, it would be hard to think it would not be of diagnostic quality; it's pretty hard to mess up an elbow xray.
PS: I missed the elbow xray, I think OFA made the right call on that.
by Jagenstadt on 05 December 2012 - 03:12
Hi Blitz....all is well here, hope things are good with you.
I've already shown the xrays to 2 different vets who's opinions I respect and both agree that the positioning of the hips could be better but it's doubtful the hips will pass O.F.A. even with better positioning.
Also showed to Fred Lanting who's opinion I respect, he also agrees hips will not O.F.A. but may score "a" noch zugelassen.
All agree elbow is shot, not a chance of passing O.F.A. or "a" stamp.
Re-doing the hip xray is pointless.
by Blitzen on 05 December 2012 - 03:12
That's 3 to my 1 so I guess I'm in the minority on this one!! Even if there would be a chance of getting a pass from OFA, the elbow is the deal breaker, isn't it?
Take care.....
Take care.....
by djc on 05 December 2012 - 17:12
I believe the breeder should make good on this, but my real question stems from ...
.... MANY MANY dogs come back with one side good and the other questionable or bad. This is NOT uncommon at all. But what I don't understand is why it is so unbelievable to some? When a body is forming, each and every part is formed separately. This gives way to many various scenarios. Have you not heard of one arm being longer than another on a human...., or leg... or foot... etc. The formation of a body is just not that cut and dried to think that all limbs and joints would be formed equally. I've even heard some say, in regards to dogs, that if one side is good and the other bad then it HAS to be from an injury or stress in the environment of some sort on that one joint. I just can not see that logic at all. No body is ever formed completely perfect or symmetrical!! I am not saying that bad joints can not become that way FROM environmental factors, because they CAN, but simply one should not assume that when only one joint is bad. I AM saying that one good and one bad joint CAN be genetic or environmental and it is not uncommon at all. It is uncommon, in my view, that both joints on one side are bad. Not saying it's not genetic, just saying it's unusual.
Debby
.... MANY MANY dogs come back with one side good and the other questionable or bad. This is NOT uncommon at all. But what I don't understand is why it is so unbelievable to some? When a body is forming, each and every part is formed separately. This gives way to many various scenarios. Have you not heard of one arm being longer than another on a human...., or leg... or foot... etc. The formation of a body is just not that cut and dried to think that all limbs and joints would be formed equally. I've even heard some say, in regards to dogs, that if one side is good and the other bad then it HAS to be from an injury or stress in the environment of some sort on that one joint. I just can not see that logic at all. No body is ever formed completely perfect or symmetrical!! I am not saying that bad joints can not become that way FROM environmental factors, because they CAN, but simply one should not assume that when only one joint is bad. I AM saying that one good and one bad joint CAN be genetic or environmental and it is not uncommon at all. It is uncommon, in my view, that both joints on one side are bad. Not saying it's not genetic, just saying it's unusual.
Debby
by Jagenstadt on 05 December 2012 - 20:12
Debby, I agree with you 100%, I've seen this type of scenario many times in the past.
There is no rhyme or reason to it that I know of (excluding injury) between one side or both sides.
There is no rhyme or reason to it that I know of (excluding injury) between one side or both sides.
by Blitzen on 05 December 2012 - 23:12
http://www.offa.org/pdf/monograph_2012_web.pdf
An interesting article regarding HD. Scroll down to page 16 for information about unilateral HD.
An interesting article regarding HD. Scroll down to page 16 for information about unilateral HD.
by Prager on 06 December 2012 - 01:12
Referring to x ray posted in the post above by OstreicherYount.
Grrrr! NO KNEE CAPS again! Also I would like to see a radiograph where a round marker is not covering a part of the pelvis. There is an important area which needs to be convex. If it is concave then that is not so good. I can see that on the right hand side - the left hip- there is an development of a concave shape right above the acetabulum( = socket) margin .
Positioning could be better too. Dog little crocked ( not too bad) top of the pelvis is missing. That is not good. X ray is out of focus and not developed properly. = Every x ray must have totally white and totally black area., This x ray is very gray which indicates that the chemicals were old or not of proper temperature or what ever.
Can we see radiograph with knee caps being present ?
In any case I would most definitely resubmit these hips so that the area where there is a circular marker is visible. . And in any case I would not worry that this dog will have ever problems with these hips.
The hips are deep in the socket. The problem are not with hips per se but with the area above the acetabulum margin which needs to be convex . If it is concave then that is a sign of degeneration of the bone and it may get worse as the dog gets older the concave shape will generate a point that will be like pointy spur like formation which may even brake of and generate floating pieces of bone. I am not saying that this will happen with this dog's hips but it could.
As far as elbow I am not good enough to critique anything here. I would just like to say that this dog with elbow like that will not have much problem during most of his life if ever. The biggest problem are UOP ant that is not the case here.
I would venture to say the hips radiograph that if the x ray film development and the positioning of the dog would be better that there is a great possibility grad improvement. ( Of course I do not know what is under the marker. )
Remember OFA will evaluate only what they see. They will not assume anything or estimate what they do not see.
I would not send this quality of x ray to OFA. Again read this:
http://www.alpinek9.com/Hips.html
Here is an example from my website of almost perfect film of the radiograph, developed well, crisp , sharp edges. You can see black and white color. Both L and R sides are mirror image and most everything is parallel and perpendicular. Knee caps are pointing slightly outwards and should be in the middle of the knee like a bull's eye.
Hips them selves are not good and you can see the concave shaping above acetabulum margin on the left hand side in comparison of the convex shaping above acetabulum margin on the right hand side.
Grrrr! NO KNEE CAPS again! Also I would like to see a radiograph where a round marker is not covering a part of the pelvis. There is an important area which needs to be convex. If it is concave then that is not so good. I can see that on the right hand side - the left hip- there is an development of a concave shape right above the acetabulum( = socket) margin .
Positioning could be better too. Dog little crocked ( not too bad) top of the pelvis is missing. That is not good. X ray is out of focus and not developed properly. = Every x ray must have totally white and totally black area., This x ray is very gray which indicates that the chemicals were old or not of proper temperature or what ever.
Can we see radiograph with knee caps being present ?
In any case I would most definitely resubmit these hips so that the area where there is a circular marker is visible. . And in any case I would not worry that this dog will have ever problems with these hips.
The hips are deep in the socket. The problem are not with hips per se but with the area above the acetabulum margin which needs to be convex . If it is concave then that is a sign of degeneration of the bone and it may get worse as the dog gets older the concave shape will generate a point that will be like pointy spur like formation which may even brake of and generate floating pieces of bone. I am not saying that this will happen with this dog's hips but it could.
As far as elbow I am not good enough to critique anything here. I would just like to say that this dog with elbow like that will not have much problem during most of his life if ever. The biggest problem are UOP ant that is not the case here.
I would venture to say the hips radiograph that if the x ray film development and the positioning of the dog would be better that there is a great possibility grad improvement. ( Of course I do not know what is under the marker. )
Remember OFA will evaluate only what they see. They will not assume anything or estimate what they do not see.
I would not send this quality of x ray to OFA. Again read this:
http://www.alpinek9.com/Hips.html
Here is an example from my website of almost perfect film of the radiograph, developed well, crisp , sharp edges. You can see black and white color. Both L and R sides are mirror image and most everything is parallel and perpendicular. Knee caps are pointing slightly outwards and should be in the middle of the knee like a bull's eye.
Hips them selves are not good and you can see the concave shaping above acetabulum margin on the left hand side in comparison of the convex shaping above acetabulum margin on the right hand side.
by Prager on 06 December 2012 - 01:12
Here is another perfect picture but the top of the pelvis is missing. These are good - excellent hips. 
by Prager on 06 December 2012 - 01:12
OH I have just noticed that it was decided that redoing the hip x rays is pointless. Oh well. I hate to admit it but I agree with Blitzen . Yes I do. Can we at least see the x rays with knee caps?
Breeder should repalce the dog based on bad elbow. As far as hips goes the people who read it can only go on what they see. I see a lot of problems with the film and positioning and area which I do not see. And eeven as the evaluation goes it would be Noch Zugelessen.
Hans
Breeder should repalce the dog based on bad elbow. As far as hips goes the people who read it can only go on what they see. I see a lot of problems with the film and positioning and area which I do not see. And eeven as the evaluation goes it would be Noch Zugelessen.
Hans
by Blitzen on 06 December 2012 - 03:12
ATTENTION EVERYONE............HANS AGREES WITH BLITZEN. Who'd a thunk? 
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