Push, pull and shake? Or not? - Page 3

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by Prager on 28 November 2018 - 01:11

I will say this. I never teach dogs to bite and where to bite and how to bite.
I teach them protection against man and not where to specifically target the man. The dogs instinctually know where and how to grip if make them understand that that is what we want and then we let them do what they instinctually know how to do better then us. To think that we need to teach them would make me wonder how they survived in wild for hundreds of millions of years. I see same crud when people trach S&R . they try to teach the dog how to track.!!!! how arrogant is that? When I was doing S&R, my mentor, Nancy Hackmeister told me: "If you know how to track then track yourself you then do not need a dog for it."
Dogs know how to track and how to bite and our job is only to communicate to the dog that we want them to do it when we say so.
IMO Protection training then should teach them to do it on command or when the situation requires it.
My dog "Mu" ( Short for Musashi) have during my training for 1 year+ have never seen a sleeve or suit ot bite toy and was never taught the foundation of bites and how to grip and push or pull,... and all that happy horse crap. And when he was ready I took him to to him a strange place and got to him unfamiliar decoy and put the decoy in a suit which is THE first time when he EVER has seen a suit. I have done runaway with him and Mu hit the decoy in the upper back between the spine and shoulder and spun him and knocked him down. 1st time. No BS. He has done so like a pro who does it all his life even though this was his first bite ever. Unfortunately, I have no video of this as far as I know and I must ask some people there if someone does have one. But I have at least 8 witnesses.
This is a standard training and I have trained many dogs that way. And I will tell you that most quality GSD Or Mals or Dutchess can do this if trained exactly the same way. My Mu cannot care less for suit, sleeve or bite toys. He does not even know what they are.
The point is that how the dog bites is a reflection of his protection training and not the other way around where protection is developed out of bitework.
Call me Iconoclast but that is how I do it.

by Prager on 28 November 2018 - 02:11

Vito what are you talking about? You surely must be jesting. Of course, I can pick words.  LOL Different synonyms are applicable and relevant to different situations and I have highlighted the ones which I thought are the most relevant to the definition of the bite according to IPO.  

by Vito Andolini on 28 November 2018 - 02:11


My point was that the words you're choosing didn't fit their definition.

by susie on 28 November 2018 - 03:11

ValK, Hans, it's totally unimportant which kind of grip, bitten body parts, or which kind of tracking you prefer-
we are talking about trial rules, not about personal preferences.
People who train IPO do not train dogs for later use as police or PP dogs, that's NOT the intention of IPO, never was.

It's a structured trial to proof the basic temperament and basic working ability of dogs, not more, not less.

You don't like IPO? It doesn't matter. Just stay away from it.


by susie on 28 November 2018 - 03:11

Forgot to mention:

I don't like handball and it's rules, I prefer basketballl because of the different movement with the ball, but
nobody cares or will change the rules for me...

by Prager on 28 November 2018 - 05:11

Oh Susie why are you picking on me :)? In case you did not notice this thread was started as a thread about working dogs and not about IPO rules. And you can stop repeating that IPO is not here to train dogs for police.we got it. Any nincompoop knows that. I am talking about sport training in general and not specifically about IPO. Nowhere in my OP have I uttered "IPO". Instead, I have said in OP: "Why do we tran dogs sport ( not IPO but sport) ?:" Why do we train sports at all? Isn't it to teach the dog to be efficient on the street? Isn't it to test the dog for suitability for breeding REAL - PRACTICAL dogs for street, for police or personal protection. Or is it to make them look pretty according to the present fad of what pretty is?" And when I said:" Why do we train sports at all? Isn't it to teach the dog to be efficient on the street? " I was talking about KNPV and other such similar sports. Not about IPO, I am sorry that I have not been more accurate. But, I say it again, nowhere in my OP I have mentioned IPO.

As far as rules of IPO goes they are destroying the original purpose of the German Shepherd by removing natural instincts from the breed and that is relevant to the thread. You say that I do not like IPO and that is not exactly the truth. :" Sports like IPO are the only hope for the GS breed, but instead, IPO, as someone on this forum aptly said, is like watching a ballet exercise performed by happy unstressed dogs and that is maddening about SV and IPO or whatever they call it these days.


by susie on 28 November 2018 - 06:11

Oh, Prager, I am not picking on you, I just told you that your topic is wrong
( pulling, shaking, thrashing not allowed )

I talked about rules, not about sense or nonsense of rules (!) according to your topic.. Your dictionary doesn't help, only actual trialing.

There are not that many "bite" sports besides IPO, I'd guess more than 90% of dogs trained in bitesports are trained according to IPO..

But sorry, you must have spoken about the 10% I didn't think about ... 😎

by ValK on 28 November 2018 - 07:11

susie, name schutzhund says for itself. discipline was introduced foremost to test ability of dog to be protector.
by the rule dog shouldn't be hesitant to engage in action and attack an offender:
1. dog avoid confrontation - dog fail, disqualification.

2. dog engages in fight, produce the bite - evaluation of strength of bite, confidence in action, response to handler's command = amount of earned points.

3. dog engages and acts in that fight in the manner, which dog's instinct/experience dictate to him as most efficient way - dog fail, disqualification.

that's by rules. thus, dog without any signs of intelligence, independent thinking, dumb like piece of timber, earned green light to a podium and promotion to multiply itself in hundreds alike.
dog, who shows not only courage but availability of well developed brain by that rules was pronounced to be bad and undesirable for breeding purpose.
is that's how it supposed to be?

by apple on 28 November 2018 - 12:11

IPO no longer has anything to do with "real" work. IPO sport is sport and that is it. I see KNPV as different, but dogs who get their PH1 still have to go through additional training for police work. It is just that the foundation training of KNPV is much more suited for producing police dogs. Plus, the better dogs are not registered and are often cross bred, so physical appearance is not a factor, which, IMO, has negatively impacted the GSD.

by adhahn on 29 November 2018 - 19:11

I've worked with SchH/IPO Helpers who discourage dogs from shaking or thrashing. Since there really isn't any rule against dogs shaking, and as Suzie pointed out no point loss- I suspect that this is something that has become considered normal or desirable over time. Some folks started thinking it was better and evolution takes place. Who knows where it originated? 

I act respectful towards helpers and their equipment (they are typically volunteers or paid next to nothing and often buy their own sleeves). I will run my dog in a circle or whatever they ask for to occupy him from thrashing someone elses sleeve. Once away from an insistent helper or using my own equipment I let my dog thrash and shake if he wants to.

During a SchH 1 trial there are only three bites. The Helper is moving and the dog has to grip hard enough to maintain control of the helper. I haven't seen much shaking or thrashing under those circumstances even with a dog who likes to shake. 

Personally, I consider it a non-issue.


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